I am in the midst of deciding whether I have a co-addictive relationship with Open Salon and should break up with it.
I opted to undergo a moratorium from it, but here I am exploring the situation and breaking my vow of unblogged self-reflection.
Is it that the easy and honeymoon phase is over between us, and I should maturely hunker down to see if I can build a serious and honest relationship with it? (I do have a cowardly track record with most relationships.)
When I saw the movie Julie & Julia I didn’t realize “Julie’s” cooking diary blog was at Open Salon. That enlightenment made me personally appreciate her obsession with reporting back about her progress to her communal audience.
Her husband supported her, sure, but there was that third vital relationship supporting and driving her. That relationship with Open Salon. That is where she’d shared her dream cooking goals and had her spirit ignited.
Open Salon can certainly infiltrate one’s life. BIG TIME. I know and appreciate it as a portal for my own personal thoughts and passions. It also has been a confounder of my personal will and ego. A natural plight? I think so. I’s not always easy, this particular cyber campus of life lessons.
There exists a paradox surrounding the relationships within and relationship to Open Salon for each individual enmeshed with it.
I cherish my acquaintanceships with many individuals there -- here -- (you see? sigh), in varying degrees of growth and intimacy. I eagerly anticipate the addition of more relationships and the deepening of the present ones.
I also have a sensibility of a relationship with the entire cyber “entity”. Wanting to impact it collectively. It is much like one’s relationship with one’s family as an “entity”, a specter beyond and in addition to the dynamics between individuals of the family. The whole vs. parts dynamic. Maybe coming from a proverbial “dysfunctional” family, my hunger to impact it is all the more haunted and ambitious and ... well, dysfunctional. I also held, for many years, the “mascot” role in my family, and I think that role in particular establishes a strong bond between entire group and mascot, whose mission is to cheerlead the group onward at all costs, especially to her or himself.
The need to impact and win the attention of said entity is in part, but not only, about ego. That part of it, though, does seem a lapse or even plunge into grandiosity and the ambitious seeking of “okayness” or “specialness.” I suspect this is not uncommon among many of my fellow writers here. Actors have their “public”. We writers here have our “open salon mass public.” For fame if not fortune. (hah!) The hunger for the numbers, for that majority or even entirety to “get us” and “approve of us”. “Learn from us”. Also, the ever-elusive “unconditional love” for a pitiable number of us who did not enjoy that profound experience from our troubled parents. Then give us the daily hit of "os conditional love" at least!
There is also the healthy reaching out to humanity, that messaging of mind and heart. The calling of every writer. The yearning human need for an audience -- as witnesses, students, empathizers for our stories.
Two years ago, B-O-S (“before Open Salon”) I met two fascinating and gutsy people on the same night who, separately, recommended Open Salon to me. I had only heard of “Salon” at that time. One was a woman who gave up a corporate job to travel to Palestine to help the survivors of Israeli oppression. The second was a young veteran against war. They were part of a collection of anti-war speakers touring the country. I never asked them if they had originally hooked up on Open Salon for such a project. A good chance. The double endorsement of Open Salon made me curious.
I don’t remember when or how I finally jumped into the Open Salon community. I do remember I soon felt the newbie’s frustration as to how on earth to coax readers, commenters and ratings. Investing time, heart and mind to a blog and then watching it move from page to page with little attention was more than a little frustrating. To have the goose-egg zero sit there and travel about right next to one’s screen name was especially shame-filling.
Bitterly I generalized that it all seemed so -- too -- competitive, cliquey. Too ego-teasing and ego-titillating with that accessible record of how many hits you have had, the number of ratings and then getting posted or more likely not on that seeming and insufferable Mt. Olympus of top-rated in the last 4 hours. I felt I was back in high school watching the most popular clique while doomed to my marginal existence. And don't get me started on the cover!
The hits and ratings for people? Okay. Reward for bottom line talent, reward for endearing and earnest personal networking, reward for personal stamina hanging with the blogging exercise week after week after week and/or reward for helluva hook in the title.
Slowly I began to get emotionally addicted to the spontaneity, the unpredictability, the wit, the pace of the place, the community members who proved generous with and interested in me as I became that back to them. There is, let’s face it, a quid pro quo scenario going on. I read your blogs and comment, you read mine and comment.
That is not to minimize the HUGE payoff in the experience. One discovers incredible -- startling -- openness and insights in so many blogs. One comes to admire the honesty, wisdom, wit, talents and especially the courage. The common life experiences and perspectives with certain others. Too many such blogs. Too little time to appreciate them all.
There are “stars” and/or “mascots” of course in the community, there is an old guard clique, of course, an ever rising new guard and there are sympatico clusters of people of mutual interests and philosophies. There are Americans and international citizens and ex-pats! Men and women. Young, middle-aged, old. Urban and rural. Politically diverse. Ethnically diverse. Educationally diverse. Religiously diverse. Gay and straight. Oh yeah, and especially temperamentally diverse!
How can one not be appreciative of the so often supportive and enthusiastic comments and even the passionate and/or thoughtful anti-your-message comments coming at you that can give you important pause and in rare but special instances a social reckoning with someone who turns out to not be a nemesis-troll but a comrade with a different take on things.
It’s all good.
Well, no ... if it were I would not have written my title. I wouldn’t be pondering if I should leave.
You’ve been patient for the “but” coming. Can I explain it well enough even for myself?
The other day I discovered a blog at a libertarian website that laid out 218 reasons not to vote for Obama. I dropped my jaw and lost my breath seeing them laid out one after the other. I was eager to post it on this website, feeling that it was a tool to persuade others more to my way of thinking about the dangerousness and past dangerousness of the Obama administration. Quite simply I see both corporate political parties as establishing the tragic scaffolding of fascism.
When my first commenters were unimpressed -- the "yes, but ..." game pragmatic progressives play -- with what I saw as a stunning and exciting index -- with links for each -- I lost it. My serenity. It had been coming, my losing it THAT quickly and intensely. It scared me.
My anger and frustration that poured out I would like to justify as “tough love” for not just the few commenters there but for my collective cyber family, a “vast” number of members deaf to what I consider a vital and profound reality -- surreality -- happening to all of us, not just Americans.
Especially when I detect a rationally superior and dismissive tone coming at me in a comment I am in danger of going defensive. I am a “feeler” and “intuiter” temperamentally and grew up around non-feeling temperaments in charge of me and my world. Emotionalism and passion were too often conflated with “craziness”.
Anyway, I know from my readings of psychology that when people around one tend to “under-function” and “under-respond” there is a see-saw effect on those who want and need to see what they consider an appropriate response, let’s say a response-ability. This induces the person frustrated to “over-function” and “over-respond” compensatorially (is that a word?). I heard such escalating stridency in me and somewhere on a clear, non-strident inner mental plane I had the capacity to appreciate that that is no way to coax people to your side of reasoning.
You know I also had a scary moment not too long ago with a really pleasant acquaintance at my job site, where I don’t readily get into politics. We were at the coffee machine and she was saying something about the election, they have CNN perpetually on in the lounge, and then I heard it from her. Obama as the “lesser of two evils”. SLOWLY, I TURNED ...!!!! Well, if you remember the Stooges’ Niagara Falls schtick, it was not a pretty sight. My non-shy friend suddenly looked at the anger in my eyes and said with a bit of terror, “I think we shouldn’t talk about this right now, maybe.” I was startled by the fear I had non-verbally elicited.
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change” the prayer begins. Easier said than done, this part.
“The courage to change what I can.” Yes, I appreciate that and am often willing to plunge in.
“And the wisdom to know the difference.” Again, this is where it gets tricky for me. This is where reality and noble, brave and genuine messaging get mixed up with unfinished historical family business and ego. "If it’s hysterical it is historical" I learned in the 12 step rooms. This is one reason I admire people like Jill Stein of the Green Party and Debra Sweet of World Can’t Wait and our Doctor Stuart and so many others here and out there who have a patient acceptance of how things are and are paced for the marathon for justice. I feel such a sprinter. There is a grace under the pressure of it all they exude. Not the stridency and personal offense I can resort to all too quickly. A patience and faith that decency and truth will out and they proudly take a stance for them.
I see myself at times more as that proverbial guy on the corner standing on the soapbox, preaching to the passersby, year after year. One story goes, finally someone stops and asks him why he persists since the stream of humanity seems to be paying him no mind. He explains, “When I first started out, I spoke out to change them (as he indicates the moving crowd). Now I speak out so they don’t change ME!”
I appreciate that story and it ties in, too, with some of my fear at Open Salon with suppressing my feelings of justified alarm at what is happening to our world from so many, many toxic and corrupted leaders. I relate to so many people’s stories here but I feel, though cronyism can be wonderful at times, it is also dangerous. Can induce a comfortable and minimizing “group think” and “peer pressure”. Can discourage the real “tough love” for the sake of civility and sentimentality and an unhealthy peaceful status quo. Another saying I heard in the rooms, “Love without honesty is sentimentality. Honesty without love is brutality.” I fear losing my way to either the sentimentality or the emotional brutality.
I have a history with the political website Firedoglake. When Jane Hamsher, its founder, began championing the “public option” I belonged to a small but passionate group of bloggers and commenters there insisting we should not compromise but demand universal health care for this generation of Americans. It was high time and hadn’t every other industrial nation already taken economic responsibility for the welfare of its citizens?
I was stunned that we were treated as the “enemy” by Jane and her large following. I did not see us necessarily at odds. I certainly felt that both groups were fighting for improving the present status quo. I saw the health care fight as needing to go the full distance. Some bright person I can’t remember who now, maybe from PNHP, wrote that “you can’t jump a chasm in two steps.” I didn’t feel Obama’s incrementalism was healthy or necessary. 80 million Americans had his back and elected him for hopefully championing just such a thing as single payer expanded Medicare for All. (As well as ending US corporate driven imperialism abroad.) Why not go for it?
I was not capable of bridging the divide with my differing compatriots at Firedoglake. The divide between us progressives got larger. Jane Hamsher had serious power as a frequent MSNBC progressive spokesperson. She was a so-called “pragmatic” progressive who was disdainful and as I saw it enabling the marginalizing of those of us on the farther left to be pushed even farther away from the national conversation on health care and, as it turned out, everything else. I left Firedoglake in protest, though I had friends on the site and loved the forum structure, much as I love the Open Salon forum structure. I think Jane blew a fantastic leadership opportunity and I am afraid I didn’t help much. I tried to argue for the full monty health care for all but not effectively then.
When I suddenly felt it may be time to leave Open Salon I felt like Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day. Here we go again. Can I, should I, play it differently this time? I don’t think I was wrong to leave back then. Is it time again?
I sometimes talk about wanting a paradigm shift to humanism, partnership and cooperation from the patriarchal one of competition, power and control and “I’m okay and you are not”-ness. But this is easier said than done. Is there a way of effective communication without being asked to give up one’s moral compass?
I want to communicate as best I can with my fellow human beings. I know I am not alone in my perspective about how bad things are in this country and the world in terms of economic and military terrorism. I don’t want to be driven -- via reaction formation -- into becoming a political bully toward those less incensed by it all. But I also don’t want to disavow what I consider now to be appropriate feelings of alarm and dread.
I’ll end this long piece, and if you waded through it I thank you, with a story from Thom Hartmann’s book Healing ADD. It involves a young woman who was considered neurotic in her insistence that a disaster was brewing in her world:
There’s a perhaps-apocryphal story commonly told among therapists about the famous psychotherapist Judith Fromm-Reichmann. She had a client, a young woman, who came to her a bundle of nerves and fears. This young woman was certain she would soon be the victim of a terrible disaster, that the government had been taken over by madmen, and that her life was in danger; she was socially paralyzed by her anxiety and afraid to leave her house. Fromm-Reichmann spent three years with this woman, helping her resolve her fears and adjust to the society in which she lived. Finally, she was pronounced cured and discharged from therapy. Two weeks later this young Jewish woman was arrested by the Gestapo and sent to a death camp. Shortly thereafter, Fromm-Reichmann herself escaped Nazi Germany.
How do you know for sure that your readers were unimpressed?
Speaking for myself: I've been slowly reading through your links. Based as I am in Europe, although I hold a US passport, my political focus has been on this side of the pond and any comment from me on your post would have been less than informed.
It is a long post, Libbyliberal and not as easy going down as some others, more like spinach to Tink's Tastycakes if you know what I'm saying. Maybe you need to give those of us with a slower digestion a bit more time to mull things over...
Speaking for myself: I've been slowly reading through your links. Based as I am in Europe, although I hold a US passport, my political focus has been on this side of the pond and any comment from me on your post would have been less than informed.
It is a long post, Libbyliberal and not as easy going down as some others, more like spinach to Tink's Tastycakes if you know what I'm saying. Maybe you need to give those of us with a slower digestion a bit more time to mull things over...
So much of what you say here so eloquently resonates deeply within me, as I, too, am a limbic-first-reason-later person, who also has ADD and Thom Hartmann's book on the shelf right behind me. Where we differ, I believe, is that I'm more pessimistic than you, Libby, or maybe it's fatalism. My ideological expectations have dwindled. Writing is about all that sustains my sense of self. The vision I try to convey in my writing is of human essence, our frailties v. our potential. I try to keep the two in equipoise in my imagination, otherwise the pessimism would win hands down.
I hope you stay, Libby. I especially love your poetry.
I hope you stay, Libby. I especially love your poetry.
Libby
The long and short of it is that Open Salon is one of the few places where the ADULTS of our country can find each other in the midst of our current political chaos. I am by nature not antisocial, but perhaps more than a bit Asocial. left to myself, I will drift off into a bemused Never Never land of Physics, philosophy, digital programming, or "art" and not reappear for days, if not weeks
My wife keeps me grounded to a certain extent. But only to an extent. She ( and her/our friends in the community) HATE politics, and won't discuss it, preferring to devote their attention to the actual production of Love and Community rather than the theoretical discussion of “How to produce Love and Community”.
Last week, I was grudgingly dragged into that production of Community. See:
http://open.salon.com/blog/token/2012/06/28/where_are_the_adults
And I rediscovered why I am on this earth in the first place. To herd “kids”
To discipline “nasty” kids before they turn vicious.
You and fernsy and chicago guy, and doug socks , and Kosher and others represent the few adults I've found in this utter Lord of the Flies Chaos. Don't go leaving on us now. Or at least see
http://open.salon.com/blog/token/2012/06/25/rudys_contact_info-_whats_in_a_name
and stay in touch
Got to go now, the wife calls me to civic duty- will be back to comment more, later
The long and short of it is that Open Salon is one of the few places where the ADULTS of our country can find each other in the midst of our current political chaos. I am by nature not antisocial, but perhaps more than a bit Asocial. left to myself, I will drift off into a bemused Never Never land of Physics, philosophy, digital programming, or "art" and not reappear for days, if not weeks
My wife keeps me grounded to a certain extent. But only to an extent. She ( and her/our friends in the community) HATE politics, and won't discuss it, preferring to devote their attention to the actual production of Love and Community rather than the theoretical discussion of “How to produce Love and Community”.
Last week, I was grudgingly dragged into that production of Community. See:
http://open.salon.com/blog/token/2012/06/28/where_are_the_adults
And I rediscovered why I am on this earth in the first place. To herd “kids”
To discipline “nasty” kids before they turn vicious.
You and fernsy and chicago guy, and doug socks , and Kosher and others represent the few adults I've found in this utter Lord of the Flies Chaos. Don't go leaving on us now. Or at least see
http://open.salon.com/blog/token/2012/06/25/rudys_contact_info-_whats_in_a_name
and stay in touch
Got to go now, the wife calls me to civic duty- will be back to comment more, later
Libby, I am from Greece, so my commenting here would be to say the least unappropriate, cause I know nothing about USA politics. If I knew we will certainly have a dialoque, cause it is certain, that when one cares for politics, cares for his/hers country. I remember your comment, on the situation here in Greece, and I admired all of you, for the level of interest and information you all had for the country I live in. To be honest, I know that in November you in USA have elections, and Obama is vs Romney. But I do not even know, who between them is liberal or conservative, if there are other parties in your political system, and what these sides stand for, and I know I should know better, but I am consumed in every day anxiety, not even living.
But I can totally understand you, in your saying that ""I felt like Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.." I have felt like this in other situations. I am passionate about the politics in my country, but I do not stand for any of our politicians. I am just fed up with them. It is of course the system, that obliges us all to tolerate and respect them, but trully, they are problemmens, and not solutions.
I am sorry to read your feelings, I know that your goodheart has stood for me here, and I consider you a friend. Your comments are to be admired, and they are trully condiderated thinking and not a just ""excellent, or great work, or rated, or even an r..'' . Your comments express, that you do read the work of the other, take the time to think it, and give your time to make creative criticism, or encouragement, or compasion, or opinion, with a thiking that only is offering to the author of the blog. I think that you are trully one of the few here in OS that in your comments, you always give so much in feedback.
I think that your writing is very strong, and you have the ability to agree and disagree with arguments.
I am not so sure, that there are a lot with your abilities.
I would like you to be here, and I can totally understand your disappointment. When one is giving so much, and get indifference or nothing as a response, is a sad situation, makes one feel even betrayed. I will try to read and learn about American politics, only to be able to comment in the most adequate and substantial way.
With my best wishes!!!
But I can totally understand you, in your saying that ""I felt like Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.." I have felt like this in other situations. I am passionate about the politics in my country, but I do not stand for any of our politicians. I am just fed up with them. It is of course the system, that obliges us all to tolerate and respect them, but trully, they are problemmens, and not solutions.
I am sorry to read your feelings, I know that your goodheart has stood for me here, and I consider you a friend. Your comments are to be admired, and they are trully condiderated thinking and not a just ""excellent, or great work, or rated, or even an r..'' . Your comments express, that you do read the work of the other, take the time to think it, and give your time to make creative criticism, or encouragement, or compasion, or opinion, with a thiking that only is offering to the author of the blog. I think that you are trully one of the few here in OS that in your comments, you always give so much in feedback.
I think that your writing is very strong, and you have the ability to agree and disagree with arguments.
I am not so sure, that there are a lot with your abilities.
I would like you to be here, and I can totally understand your disappointment. When one is giving so much, and get indifference or nothing as a response, is a sad situation, makes one feel even betrayed. I will try to read and learn about American politics, only to be able to comment in the most adequate and substantial way.
With my best wishes!!!
I think we all come from different backgrounds and with different perspectives to this site. And I think most of us learn something from reading posts written by people who are different from us. I don't always comment on the political posts I read, because I almost always need to mull them over and figure out where they fit in with what I believe. Sometimes they end up changing my beliefs, even though the writer may never know that. I hope you stay around.
I know for a fact that I'm one of those "pragmatic progressives" who commented and pushed you into "losing it," and when I got your PM in response to my comment I went back to read the comments on that post to see if I'd been inadvertently dismissive or curt... I was a bit puzzled. Now I think I understand.
One way or another, I'd speculate that here on OS when we look at the numbers - ratings and comments - we all feel we're shouting in the darkness and hearing echos.
In my life I've tried to do my bit, speaking out and actively resisting the draft in 1967-73, helping to organize the Greens in 1990, protesting both wars in Iraq. I've done what I could to persuade the folk who seem so bent on their own dysfunctional destructive behavior that "Hey, we don't "have to hit bottom" before we can recover.
When I was fourteen and arguing politics at the dinner table, "Mac" told me that the pendulum of American politics swings both ways, but our best hope is our ability to compromise and accept and expect progress in increments, "...two steps forward, one step back." I guess that was his way to express "...the wisdom to know the difference." It took me another thirty years to understand that, but I still haven't been able to suppress " my feelings of justified alarm at what is happening."
In the background on MSNBC I just heard a US Army private, freshly sworn in as a naturalized U. S. citizen, stand next to President Obama and recite the Pledge of Allegiance: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." To this day I still wince when I hear that mandated phrase "under God" added by Congress in 1954, but I find it very hard to argue with the rest of that oath.
Please keep speaking out Libby, if we're going to keep making those two steps forward, we need every voice we can find.
One way or another, I'd speculate that here on OS when we look at the numbers - ratings and comments - we all feel we're shouting in the darkness and hearing echos.
In my life I've tried to do my bit, speaking out and actively resisting the draft in 1967-73, helping to organize the Greens in 1990, protesting both wars in Iraq. I've done what I could to persuade the folk who seem so bent on their own dysfunctional destructive behavior that "Hey, we don't "have to hit bottom" before we can recover.
When I was fourteen and arguing politics at the dinner table, "Mac" told me that the pendulum of American politics swings both ways, but our best hope is our ability to compromise and accept and expect progress in increments, "...two steps forward, one step back." I guess that was his way to express "...the wisdom to know the difference." It took me another thirty years to understand that, but I still haven't been able to suppress " my feelings of justified alarm at what is happening."
In the background on MSNBC I just heard a US Army private, freshly sworn in as a naturalized U. S. citizen, stand next to President Obama and recite the Pledge of Allegiance: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." To this day I still wince when I hear that mandated phrase "under God" added by Congress in 1954, but I find it very hard to argue with the rest of that oath.
Please keep speaking out Libby, if we're going to keep making those two steps forward, we need every voice we can find.
rated & "favorited". I love OS and am longer ashamed to admit it to my friends and family. I love peeking into people's brains and hearts. Helps me understand even if I don't agree.
A most interesting treatise. You bring up many points that I agree with in full. Thanks for taking the time to express your feelings here.
I understand your pain but you have to let it go and realize people say things for many (self-serving) reasons and perhaps the reason it upsets you so when someone refuses to accept the the truth is that perhaps there's a truth you yourself are needing to accept.
I know it's frustrating when you see destruction happening and are helpless in the face of it but you can't put everything on yourself. Other people have brains too and it's their choice on whether or not to use them. Me, I choose to mock them for denying what they know.
I know it's frustrating when you see destruction happening and are helpless in the face of it but you can't put everything on yourself. Other people have brains too and it's their choice on whether or not to use them. Me, I choose to mock them for denying what they know.
The thing that resonates from your post with me is that many of us now have experienced several different types of "virtual communities," and there is a particular dynamic of "staying or leaving" that seems to permeate them in a way that isn't quite as overt in non-virtual communities. I mean, you can join a church, or an association, or a club, or a political party; and it doesn't seem like most people move so easily between the non-virtual ones as the virtual ones...or spend as much time vocalizing their struggle to decide if they should stay or go. Right now, I'm a little more worried that OS is going to shut down and leave us all on our own, to find another community, than if I really fit in here...which at times I do, and times, I don't. I do recommend it, from time to time, to other people...people for whom I think the openness and support here is part of what they need and what they will contribute to. That's what's really special here. It is, for the most part, a very open, creative, liberal, and supportive community...albeit a virtual one.
hey there. you're one of the most impassioned and persuasive writers on here, if there can actually be such a thing. humans are both highly susceptible to persuasion, and also highly intransigent. a knife edge which Im sure you're familiar with. jane hamsher did great work in publicizing the scooter libby case. as for your falling out with both parties, join the club-- I felt that way in college & voted accordingly. as for open salon being a "relationship"-- you use that word many times and for me its a near red flag. you cant really have much of a "relationship" with a web site, in reality, right? its an interaction which is far different than a "relationship". dont expect too much. if you get a significant amt of feedback, which you have, I think thats golden. look, you just got on the cover & a zillion ratings with a recent drone post right? thats a fantastic breakthru. Ive been writing about drones for ~3 yrs on here and will continue to do so, but never reached that milestone, and may never yet....
ultimately, there are a few key motivations for blogging, and none of them are all that substantial to a disinterested/neutral observer. the key to remember is that its like the iceberg-- a tiny visible portion and a vast underwater portion. for every comment you get, or rating you get, there are probably 10x-20x page views. the vast audience that reads our material leaves no trace at all. we get far more feedback than writers of prior generations with this technology & then we complain its not good enough. think of the brilliant writers that died without even seeing their work reach prominence. as I recall "moby dick" sold only a few thousand copies during melvilles life & he died before seeing success. and how about phillip k dick? brilliant writer/ visionary, tremendous breakthru influence on hollywood movies grossing hundreds of millions of dollars but was semidestitute most of his life....
A few years back I was sounding the alarm to a couple of good friends that were single moms. They had great jobs and because they were secure and comfortable they ignored my "crazy warnings." It broke my heart to watch reality hit them. One lost her home and everything, both are struggling just to feed their child with low income part time jobs. The only effect I had was to convince one not to buy a brand new car and wait to see which way the wind would blow.
It was truly heartbreaking to watch, once they were in freefall there was nothing I could do but offer them words of comfort and compassion. It was too late for words of wisdom or defense. Now they're so exhausted and depressed I don't hear from them. They were too addicted to the way they'd always thought and lived, all I could do was watch them hit bottom. Time and again I wished I was wrong, I still do.
"Is there a way of effective communication without being asked to give up one’s moral compass?"
The only control you have is over your side of the communication. I too struggle with the third part of the serenity prayer. My experience with addiction is that most people change when they have no other choice and most are addicted to the way things have always been. When I comment too many are still comfortable, it's not that I'm saying "whatever," it's that I know that they won't listen to anything different until they experience great personal suffering. Much like Dr. Fromm-Reichmann who liked her security and wasn't going to let go of it, until she had no choice. In the meantime I'm not going to be personally therapized by someone who has all the "brilliant answers" into a death camp.
As far as OS for me, it's been a great learning opportunity. There is some quid pro quo but I have learned to let that go. If there is a blogger whose writing interests me but never comments on mine, I'm free to read and comment on theirs if I like. If they don't comment on mine, I can't spend energy wondering why. I write what I want to say and if many comment or not, it's still what I want to say.
I wish I was in the place to return to focus on politics. I love what you write and I'm glad someone is doing it. There are so few presenting anything but the two choices and we have more. I am very frightened about the things Obama has done regarding our personal freedom and safety, far more than about the money but I can't see a way to make others understand how incredibly dangerous it is to ignore it. "Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming, we're finally on our own, this summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio." How quickly those who love Neil Young forget his messages.
As far as OS and you, I'd like to see you stay but not if it's not good for you. I genuinely care for you and don't want you to do what makes you unhappy, or unhealthy. I avoid most of the political posts but I try to support you here because this is the point of view no one else wants to take on. I know you do it because of your moral compass, and because you care enough to sacrifice yourself instead of trying to be liked, admired or popular. I have great respect for that kind of courage.
If you left I would miss you terribly, and love you still.
It was truly heartbreaking to watch, once they were in freefall there was nothing I could do but offer them words of comfort and compassion. It was too late for words of wisdom or defense. Now they're so exhausted and depressed I don't hear from them. They were too addicted to the way they'd always thought and lived, all I could do was watch them hit bottom. Time and again I wished I was wrong, I still do.
"Is there a way of effective communication without being asked to give up one’s moral compass?"
The only control you have is over your side of the communication. I too struggle with the third part of the serenity prayer. My experience with addiction is that most people change when they have no other choice and most are addicted to the way things have always been. When I comment too many are still comfortable, it's not that I'm saying "whatever," it's that I know that they won't listen to anything different until they experience great personal suffering. Much like Dr. Fromm-Reichmann who liked her security and wasn't going to let go of it, until she had no choice. In the meantime I'm not going to be personally therapized by someone who has all the "brilliant answers" into a death camp.
As far as OS for me, it's been a great learning opportunity. There is some quid pro quo but I have learned to let that go. If there is a blogger whose writing interests me but never comments on mine, I'm free to read and comment on theirs if I like. If they don't comment on mine, I can't spend energy wondering why. I write what I want to say and if many comment or not, it's still what I want to say.
I wish I was in the place to return to focus on politics. I love what you write and I'm glad someone is doing it. There are so few presenting anything but the two choices and we have more. I am very frightened about the things Obama has done regarding our personal freedom and safety, far more than about the money but I can't see a way to make others understand how incredibly dangerous it is to ignore it. "Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming, we're finally on our own, this summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio." How quickly those who love Neil Young forget his messages.
As far as OS and you, I'd like to see you stay but not if it's not good for you. I genuinely care for you and don't want you to do what makes you unhappy, or unhealthy. I avoid most of the political posts but I try to support you here because this is the point of view no one else wants to take on. I know you do it because of your moral compass, and because you care enough to sacrifice yourself instead of trying to be liked, admired or popular. I have great respect for that kind of courage.
If you left I would miss you terribly, and love you still.
Reading this post was like peeking into a window on the wall of my own mind. Frustration does set in for me, too. Some days it all seems so futile.
Then I remind myself that being a "right-fighter" is counterproductive. If I insist on every other OS reader not only reading my point of view, but actually embracing it -- without regard for their own fervid beliefs -- I am going to fail each and every day of the week. Instead, I must chip away, concept by concept, idea by idea, post by post. AND, I must be willing to not only listen to/read an opposite POV, I must be open to hearing it.
You are a valuable member of this crazy community, with a wealth of information to share. I hope you will stay, but I'll understand completely if you can't.
Lezlie
Then I remind myself that being a "right-fighter" is counterproductive. If I insist on every other OS reader not only reading my point of view, but actually embracing it -- without regard for their own fervid beliefs -- I am going to fail each and every day of the week. Instead, I must chip away, concept by concept, idea by idea, post by post. AND, I must be willing to not only listen to/read an opposite POV, I must be open to hearing it.
You are a valuable member of this crazy community, with a wealth of information to share. I hope you will stay, but I'll understand completely if you can't.
Lezlie
I am with Mimetalker on this. I love OS and must have some kind of serious addiction problem. But here's the thing, it has been about the people who have enriched my life and my world in what could have been a very long and lonely three years in my "new normal." thanks for thinking on paper and sharing your insights with us. I always enjoy what you write and it makes me think. B
I had to read this three times to fully get what you are struggling with here -- I think you have been an important part of Open Salon with your impassioned views and writings, even if not everyone agrees or even feels the way you do. I too get caught spending way too much time here and have had to learn to back off and remember to join brick-and-mortar friends, even if I feel so happy with you all here so often...
When I read this: "I was eager to post it on this website, feeling that it was a tool to persuade others more to my way of thinking ..."
I felt that might be the problem you are having, as, that is a tall order in the best possible world, much less online, plus, I'm not sure you need to feel you must convince others as much as just clearly say your piece and declare that good. Some will agree, some won't. Nature of the beast.
I think you declare your point of view quite well and I hope you won't regard only agreement of your views as a reason for writing here going forward...
When I read this: "I was eager to post it on this website, feeling that it was a tool to persuade others more to my way of thinking ..."
I felt that might be the problem you are having, as, that is a tall order in the best possible world, much less online, plus, I'm not sure you need to feel you must convince others as much as just clearly say your piece and declare that good. Some will agree, some won't. Nature of the beast.
I think you declare your point of view quite well and I hope you won't regard only agreement of your views as a reason for writing here going forward...
"Is there a way of effective communication without being asked to give up one’s moral compass?"
I think you have the answer, here.
It ties in with Alan Nothnagle's current piece about an American who didn't leave OS, he left America, and explains why.
Like Stathi I can only watch from afar and wonder at events in your country, but unlike Stathi's Greece, Australia has a two-party system, with the balance of power held by the Greens.
It's not ideal, but there's room to move. We rely on freedom of speech ( not a given, on OS ) and community organisations like Get Up ( http://www.getup.org.au/) to raise awareness around issues that impact on our lives. Corporate influence is pervasive here too, of course, witness our involvement in the last three of your wars, but Big Pharma, for example, doesn't have the same stranglehold.
Voices like yours, like Get Up's, like dare-I-say Gore Vidal's, are vital to what's left of the exchange of views not just domestically but globally. No-one in Amnesty ever said quit. Or Medicins sans Frontieres either. It's your mission, obviously. I think you communicate it effectively, and without wavering.
I will admit though, complete single-mindedness scares me, at some level.
I think you have the answer, here.
It ties in with Alan Nothnagle's current piece about an American who didn't leave OS, he left America, and explains why.
Like Stathi I can only watch from afar and wonder at events in your country, but unlike Stathi's Greece, Australia has a two-party system, with the balance of power held by the Greens.
It's not ideal, but there's room to move. We rely on freedom of speech ( not a given, on OS ) and community organisations like Get Up ( http://www.getup.org.au/) to raise awareness around issues that impact on our lives. Corporate influence is pervasive here too, of course, witness our involvement in the last three of your wars, but Big Pharma, for example, doesn't have the same stranglehold.
Voices like yours, like Get Up's, like dare-I-say Gore Vidal's, are vital to what's left of the exchange of views not just domestically but globally. No-one in Amnesty ever said quit. Or Medicins sans Frontieres either. It's your mission, obviously. I think you communicate it effectively, and without wavering.
I will admit though, complete single-mindedness scares me, at some level.
"even if not everyone agrees or even feels the way you do"
Ooops. : )
I agree with Kim on his last line as well. About complete single-mindedness...
Ooops. : )
I agree with Kim on his last line as well. About complete single-mindedness...
This was fascinating, Libby, thanks for posting. OS is indeed addictive, and while I think it's a wonderful institution, there's always the question of how nutritious it is, just like other addictive substances. Aren't we just preaching to the choir, and expending time and energy that could more profitably be exploited elsewhere? You wouldn't be the first to ask yourself this question.
That story you conclude with is utterly chilling - it will take some time to digest. When the madmen take over the asylum, it's often the previous inmates who are the most sane. After all, during the Third Reich, the "smart money" was on the triumph of Hitler, and his detractors were regarded as oddballs and "terrorists." As George Carlin used to say, always challenge the common "wisdom."
Rated.
That story you conclude with is utterly chilling - it will take some time to digest. When the madmen take over the asylum, it's often the previous inmates who are the most sane. After all, during the Third Reich, the "smart money" was on the triumph of Hitler, and his detractors were regarded as oddballs and "terrorists." As George Carlin used to say, always challenge the common "wisdom."
Rated.
We don't live in Nazi Germany. Sorry. Ever wonder why it's so personal to you?
Obama isn't the father who didn't love you, nor is anyone else who has authority. It's called projection. It's where fanaticism comes from. You always get to be right but it undermines your maturity and makes you a little girl stomping her foot at daddy and calling it something else.
But obviously, it's a succesful defense for you and easier to maintain.
Obama isn't the father who didn't love you, nor is anyone else who has authority. It's called projection. It's where fanaticism comes from. You always get to be right but it undermines your maturity and makes you a little girl stomping her foot at daddy and calling it something else.
But obviously, it's a succesful defense for you and easier to maintain.
Ben Sen, are you Bill Beck ?
Kate:
I wish Libby all the best finding the agreement and acceptance she's looking for, but I don't think she or anybody is going to find it on the internet or in any ideology they profess, which is pretty much what she is indicating here.
I don't think that's snarky. Fanaticism that masquerades as "liberalism" is not something I support and a danger to democracy. Libby takes no prisoners. I'm very familiar with her views and her methodology. I am simply saying what I think and that is not an attempt to intimidate her.
If the problem is projection, which it often is both on the fringe right and the left, it needs to be pointed out and I think that is an adult communication. I have fought it since the day I got online.
I wish Libby all the best finding the agreement and acceptance she's looking for, but I don't think she or anybody is going to find it on the internet or in any ideology they profess, which is pretty much what she is indicating here.
I don't think that's snarky. Fanaticism that masquerades as "liberalism" is not something I support and a danger to democracy. Libby takes no prisoners. I'm very familiar with her views and her methodology. I am simply saying what I think and that is not an attempt to intimidate her.
If the problem is projection, which it often is both on the fringe right and the left, it needs to be pointed out and I think that is an adult communication. I have fought it since the day I got online.
Libby, I think some intentions are at cross -purposes. I mean we cannot seek popularity and wide acceptance by everyone and, at the same time, be blunt, bold, and assertive about expressing sharp critiques of conventional wisdom. To be radical, to be controversial is to rile up some people, be perceived of as a trouble-maker, and have them reject you. I think we can only hope to be understood and accepted by a relatively few number of people. The knowledge that you were true to yourself, to speaking your vision, has to be the compensation for not being widely accepted, understood, and appreciated. I don't agree with everything you say, but what you have to say is valuable, always worth considering, and I would miss you if you dropped out of sight. I hope I've made sense in this comment because you are important and this issues you raise are important ones.
I hope you don't waste any energy on Ben Sen's pop psychology, it's irrelevant. Just because someone is old doesn't meant they get to be bossy, he's not your parent. You don't have to "behave like a good little girl" just because he's trying to define what are correct behaviors for others.
I hope you're having a good evening. You're in my thoughts.
I hope you're having a good evening. You're in my thoughts.
I am so impressed and grateful at the response to my self-reflective-indulgent blog on the confusion and frustration I have been feeling lately with myself and the site. Thank you especially for wading through so much and then commenting and on a holiday day and night!
I figured if I tightened and edited the above I wouldn't post it at all so I let it all pour out as it came and hit publish. Thank you all. Considering leaving open salon really made me face how much I do appreciate and cherish it (and such special friends I have made here). How special it is, can be, and has been to me. I am looking forward to and about to address at least some of the comments tonight! best, libby
I figured if I tightened and edited the above I wouldn't post it at all so I let it all pour out as it came and hit publish. Thank you all. Considering leaving open salon really made me face how much I do appreciate and cherish it (and such special friends I have made here). How special it is, can be, and has been to me. I am looking forward to and about to address at least some of the comments tonight! best, libby
V. Corso, thanks for jumping on this thread first and wading through so much.
You ask: "How do you know for sure that your readers were unimpressed?"
You are absolutely right. Never assume ... and the rest of how that message goes! I have been watching myself become incrementally more frustrated and more pessimistic. And as I said, my serenity-losing threshold was lowering and lowering.
I appreciate you also wading through other links of mine. I cull a lot of political information from non-traditional sites but ones that seem to really do their homework based on real and strong statistics and have strong attitudes. I feel a zeal to get some of that more remote info from citizen access rippling out and in counterpoint to what is being served up on the tv. To me these sites, like wsws or black agenda report or information clearing house or dissident voice are great counterpoints to the tiny and distracting penlight focus of the corporate media, especially the Dem team lack of accountability focus all out only on down and dirty Republicans progressive media.
I figure there is plenty of attention to the down and dirty Republicans (no argument) but some of us need to try to hold Dem feet to fire and not let them get an undeserved pass on their troubling ongoing shenanigans, whether an election year or not. Enabling them when I feel they don't deserve it not a way to make them exercise more integrity and responsibility to us.
You make me laugh with Tink's Tastycakes. Yes, what metaphorically would my tough chewing and tough digesting platefuls be compared to? I will take that into consideration. I know some of my blogs can really go on, too. The last one I did one on Jill Stein I think I quoted part of every statement she had ever made!
Thanks, V! Great feedback! Substantial but easily digestible! best, libby
You ask: "How do you know for sure that your readers were unimpressed?"
You are absolutely right. Never assume ... and the rest of how that message goes! I have been watching myself become incrementally more frustrated and more pessimistic. And as I said, my serenity-losing threshold was lowering and lowering.
I appreciate you also wading through other links of mine. I cull a lot of political information from non-traditional sites but ones that seem to really do their homework based on real and strong statistics and have strong attitudes. I feel a zeal to get some of that more remote info from citizen access rippling out and in counterpoint to what is being served up on the tv. To me these sites, like wsws or black agenda report or information clearing house or dissident voice are great counterpoints to the tiny and distracting penlight focus of the corporate media, especially the Dem team lack of accountability focus all out only on down and dirty Republicans progressive media.
I figure there is plenty of attention to the down and dirty Republicans (no argument) but some of us need to try to hold Dem feet to fire and not let them get an undeserved pass on their troubling ongoing shenanigans, whether an election year or not. Enabling them when I feel they don't deserve it not a way to make them exercise more integrity and responsibility to us.
You make me laugh with Tink's Tastycakes. Yes, what metaphorically would my tough chewing and tough digesting platefuls be compared to? I will take that into consideration. I know some of my blogs can really go on, too. The last one I did one on Jill Stein I think I quoted part of every statement she had ever made!
Thanks, V! Great feedback! Substantial but easily digestible! best, libby
Chicken Maaan, appreciate your good will once again! Thanks. Yes, we must talk ADD . "Limbic-first-reason-later" person. Interestingly put. Impulse control I guess is a part of my present issues.
I read a book by Eckhart Tolle called a New Earth about how the EGO insinuates itself into our communications unhealthily at times. Tolle calls EGO "Edging-God-Out". Coming from a more manipulative and desperate power-oriented place than a more heart-sincere leveling and spiritual one. Tolle says "fear" has a lot to do with inviting the EGO in. The fear makes one less grounded, less honest and clean about one's limitations and thus uneasy and pre-emptively defensive.
Interesting your "fatalism" remark. I feel like I am the pessimist here, Debbie Downer too much, but I feel the outrages and corporate political propaganda need to be addressed. But hope and alternatives make things easier to hear and I should consider this more in my writing for readers AND for myself! Jill Stein is an option that brings me hope. I want to address her more as a solution. And yes, I know the challenge of that.
I remember John Bradshaw warned of two types of people in one of his books. The kind of people who would stand in line to experience a lecture on heaven, and the ones who would stand in line to experience heaven. I think I would line up for the lecture. Sigh. Would like to work on that one, too. :-)
You write:
"The vision I try to convey in my writing is of human essence, our frailties v. our potential. I try to keep the two in equipoise in my imagination, otherwise the pessimism would win hands down."
Sounds like a good plan. There is a cynicism and a kind of anti-hero fatalism in this age of Seinfeld. An honesty about human foibles that is refreshing, yes, and entertaining, but too often not much respect for idealism or someone striving to stay in their "higher self" range of the human continuum. Maybe the pendulum will find its balance. Maybe gamesmanship and titillation in entertainment and even infotainment will not continually override inspiring moral and/or empathetic messaging.
best, libby
I read a book by Eckhart Tolle called a New Earth about how the EGO insinuates itself into our communications unhealthily at times. Tolle calls EGO "Edging-God-Out". Coming from a more manipulative and desperate power-oriented place than a more heart-sincere leveling and spiritual one. Tolle says "fear" has a lot to do with inviting the EGO in. The fear makes one less grounded, less honest and clean about one's limitations and thus uneasy and pre-emptively defensive.
Interesting your "fatalism" remark. I feel like I am the pessimist here, Debbie Downer too much, but I feel the outrages and corporate political propaganda need to be addressed. But hope and alternatives make things easier to hear and I should consider this more in my writing for readers AND for myself! Jill Stein is an option that brings me hope. I want to address her more as a solution. And yes, I know the challenge of that.
I remember John Bradshaw warned of two types of people in one of his books. The kind of people who would stand in line to experience a lecture on heaven, and the ones who would stand in line to experience heaven. I think I would line up for the lecture. Sigh. Would like to work on that one, too. :-)
You write:
"The vision I try to convey in my writing is of human essence, our frailties v. our potential. I try to keep the two in equipoise in my imagination, otherwise the pessimism would win hands down."
Sounds like a good plan. There is a cynicism and a kind of anti-hero fatalism in this age of Seinfeld. An honesty about human foibles that is refreshing, yes, and entertaining, but too often not much respect for idealism or someone striving to stay in their "higher self" range of the human continuum. Maybe the pendulum will find its balance. Maybe gamesmanship and titillation in entertainment and even infotainment will not continually override inspiring moral and/or empathetic messaging.
best, libby
Rudy, thanks for your comment and your attitude! Yes, I recognize what a unique forum we have here. Political chaos is right out there. And there is something refreshing about us all not being in one narrow choir of ideology. Though I say that now. See if I can remember that and remind me that I said that (when the going gets rough for me!). I know the tests will come again. Frustration and pessimism and anger are feelings and feelings are emotional energy, not right or wrong, but staying locked in them inappropriately, that is where problems arise.
As you talk about your wife and community I think of that Pete Seeger advice, "think globally, act locally." Appreciate the "local acting" going on with you all! An inspiration and good reminder.
I look forward to reading your sharing:
http://open.salon.com/blog/token/2012/06/28/where_are_the_adults
Working with kids is so important and so often discounted or minimized in our society. GOOD FOR YOU!
I do intend to hang on longer here and am glad I shared and people shared back. As I wrote above, my feelings were trending to frustration and impatience and I am glad I can explore it within the forum instead of fleeing the forum. The test will be in upcoming experiences but I am feeling significant hope and SERENITY right now. Maybe my Bill Murray/Groundhog Day spirit got a little farther into my own life plot scenario! :-)
Thanks, my friend!!!
best, libby
As you talk about your wife and community I think of that Pete Seeger advice, "think globally, act locally." Appreciate the "local acting" going on with you all! An inspiration and good reminder.
I look forward to reading your sharing:
http://open.salon.com/blog/token/2012/06/28/where_are_the_adults
Working with kids is so important and so often discounted or minimized in our society. GOOD FOR YOU!
I do intend to hang on longer here and am glad I shared and people shared back. As I wrote above, my feelings were trending to frustration and impatience and I am glad I can explore it within the forum instead of fleeing the forum. The test will be in upcoming experiences but I am feeling significant hope and SERENITY right now. Maybe my Bill Murray/Groundhog Day spirit got a little farther into my own life plot scenario! :-)
Thanks, my friend!!!
best, libby
Libby
After seeing Ben Sen's comments, i"m reminded of a truism about OS that I will pass on to you. Every once in a while you will stumble on a group of small naked boys holding a circle jerk. This is a very solemn occasion for them, and is important to their development of their sense of self. Mock them, ignore them, laugh at them, sit and watch, give them helpful advice on stroking each other. Whatever you do, don't take them seriously. They aren't trying to communicate. They don't want your participation (particularly if you're a "Gurl") or your opinions. They engage others solely to jerk each other off.
After seeing Ben Sen's comments, i"m reminded of a truism about OS that I will pass on to you. Every once in a while you will stumble on a group of small naked boys holding a circle jerk. This is a very solemn occasion for them, and is important to their development of their sense of self. Mock them, ignore them, laugh at them, sit and watch, give them helpful advice on stroking each other. Whatever you do, don't take them seriously. They aren't trying to communicate. They don't want your participation (particularly if you're a "Gurl") or your opinions. They engage others solely to jerk each other off.
Stathi!! Thanks so much for your support and good will. I think your politics and our politics are sadly not so different. I think Goldman Sachs corporation has been the same economic terrorist villain for both countries.
I really relate to your saying: ".., but I am consumed in every day anxiety, not even living."
I think this is so true so often. The anxiety from economic terrorism is an advantage for the growing "fascism".
Also, I am ashamed, Stathi, that like many Americans I don't keep up more with what is happening in other countries or am slowly catching up. And am horrified at the US predatory role with so many countries past and present. I am so cynical now about the US war machine and the UN and NATO.
I feel that our so-called progressive candidate, Obama is beholding to the corporatists, and the conservative Romney is also beholding to the corporatists. When I watch the American television they talk about Americans backing either one or the other. In reality there are so many of us who are not backing either, they don't deserve it, and what really gets me is that the corporate propagandists on tv refuse to even acknowledge we are out there in significant numbers and this is because of the betrayal of these parties. They pretend this is not the elephant in the room, what is missing from the national conversation.
The person I want for president is from the Green Party, Jill Stein, and it is like she is the fairy tale character Rumplestiltskin whom nobody knew the name of. She is pro-citizen. She is running without corporate funding. She wants to REGULATE corporate pirates -- thieves.
Her slogan is People, Peace and Planet! I mean, how basic and decent is that as a generalized agenda? Corporatists who have bribed our government officials are not for even one of those entities in the slogan.
YES, YES, YES. WHERE I AM, WHAT YOU SAY:
"But I can totally understand you, in your saying that ""I felt like Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.." I have felt like this in other situations. I am passionate about the politics in my country, but I do not stand for any of our politicians. I am just fed up with them. It is of course the system, that obliges us all to tolerate and respect them, but trully, they are problemmens, and not solutions. "
Stathi, I enjoy your inspiring work and always a pleasure to comment on your blogs. And I thank you for your always thoughtful and generous comments back to me, like now!
You take care of your precious self! Thanks again for your usual comforting warmth! best, libby xxxx
I really relate to your saying: ".., but I am consumed in every day anxiety, not even living."
I think this is so true so often. The anxiety from economic terrorism is an advantage for the growing "fascism".
Also, I am ashamed, Stathi, that like many Americans I don't keep up more with what is happening in other countries or am slowly catching up. And am horrified at the US predatory role with so many countries past and present. I am so cynical now about the US war machine and the UN and NATO.
I feel that our so-called progressive candidate, Obama is beholding to the corporatists, and the conservative Romney is also beholding to the corporatists. When I watch the American television they talk about Americans backing either one or the other. In reality there are so many of us who are not backing either, they don't deserve it, and what really gets me is that the corporate propagandists on tv refuse to even acknowledge we are out there in significant numbers and this is because of the betrayal of these parties. They pretend this is not the elephant in the room, what is missing from the national conversation.
The person I want for president is from the Green Party, Jill Stein, and it is like she is the fairy tale character Rumplestiltskin whom nobody knew the name of. She is pro-citizen. She is running without corporate funding. She wants to REGULATE corporate pirates -- thieves.
Her slogan is People, Peace and Planet! I mean, how basic and decent is that as a generalized agenda? Corporatists who have bribed our government officials are not for even one of those entities in the slogan.
YES, YES, YES. WHERE I AM, WHAT YOU SAY:
"But I can totally understand you, in your saying that ""I felt like Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.." I have felt like this in other situations. I am passionate about the politics in my country, but I do not stand for any of our politicians. I am just fed up with them. It is of course the system, that obliges us all to tolerate and respect them, but trully, they are problemmens, and not solutions. "
Stathi, I enjoy your inspiring work and always a pleasure to comment on your blogs. And I thank you for your always thoughtful and generous comments back to me, like now!
You take care of your precious self! Thanks again for your usual comforting warmth! best, libby xxxx
stay libby ~ (as long as you have a taste for it anyway) for all the reasons you already should know I'd tell you, and have already.
You should be taking these words and throwing them into the air where they belong... They would fly beautifully, on powerful wings like wise owls, like hawks, and flamingos...
with a heart and a soul... and a mind.
You should be speaking, not just writing...
¡Saludos guerrera!
You should be taking these words and throwing them into the air where they belong... They would fly beautifully, on powerful wings like wise owls, like hawks, and flamingos...
with a heart and a soul... and a mind.
You should be speaking, not just writing...
¡Saludos guerrera!
jlsathre, thank you for your wisdom and simple enlightenment for me to have more empathy to the need of readers to process provocative political stances that people like me often make in contradiction to what is being pitched by the corporate-influenced media.
Of course there is cognitive dissonance stirred up hearing contradictory narratives. With a 24/7 corporate media now primarily run by 5 major media conglomerates there is really heavy-handed pro-corporate prioritizing indoctrinating citizens that the tv flooded perspectives reflect reality and what is best for us citizens when they are so often imho in the interests of corporations and/or a particular political party.
I don't want to aim my exasperation with the government and with the corporate media against my fellow citizens of open salon. I don't know how many are questioning or not the mass media messaging. I wish more people would object to it in writing, and feel some exasperation that there are not more doing so, but at the same time I can appreciate why not.
When, say, GE signs your paycheck, there is certainly an incentive for a charismatic media personality to present what is most comfortable to that "corporation". I think of how the personality profile of a legal corporate "person" is said to be one of a "psychopath". So when I think of corporate prioritizing I know human interests and empathy are not seriously on the list.
Thanks for your good will and enduring even more opinions from me in my comment to you! best, libby
Of course there is cognitive dissonance stirred up hearing contradictory narratives. With a 24/7 corporate media now primarily run by 5 major media conglomerates there is really heavy-handed pro-corporate prioritizing indoctrinating citizens that the tv flooded perspectives reflect reality and what is best for us citizens when they are so often imho in the interests of corporations and/or a particular political party.
I don't want to aim my exasperation with the government and with the corporate media against my fellow citizens of open salon. I don't know how many are questioning or not the mass media messaging. I wish more people would object to it in writing, and feel some exasperation that there are not more doing so, but at the same time I can appreciate why not.
When, say, GE signs your paycheck, there is certainly an incentive for a charismatic media personality to present what is most comfortable to that "corporation". I think of how the personality profile of a legal corporate "person" is said to be one of a "psychopath". So when I think of corporate prioritizing I know human interests and empathy are not seriously on the list.
Thanks for your good will and enduring even more opinions from me in my comment to you! best, libby
will be back! best, libby
There is, perhaps, something of a hopeful misunderstanding as to the power of what is said on this site insofar as its influence on the opinions carried by each f the participants. I have offered opinions with documentation as to how far off the mark many of the statements in the political area by people who post have been and my influence in changing opinions has been, insofar as I can determine, less than negligible. There is some satisfaction in having a place to bitch about how stupid and brutal those in power have been and most definitely still are but aside from leaking out a bit of the negativity for relief and confirmation with people of like mind there is pretty much zero real influence on the real situation. The agility of the people in power in suppressing the occupy movement which was merely a peaceful expression of misery over current events and expressly permitted under the Constitution and the failure to kick out the governor of Wisconsin who obviously is a political whore and a very bad penny by the people he was offending is an open indication the nation seems pretty much unaware as to the disasters it is headed for unopposed.
The energy and the firm documentation of your opinions has been a joy to me at this site, however ineffectual they might have been on actual action. Please do not leave. Whacking at the petrified public may seem hopeless, but it's a job that must be done and eventually you might start an avalanche of conscious understanding that will tumble the stinking architecture of criminality now in control.
The energy and the firm documentation of your opinions has been a joy to me at this site, however ineffectual they might have been on actual action. Please do not leave. Whacking at the petrified public may seem hopeless, but it's a job that must be done and eventually you might start an avalanche of conscious understanding that will tumble the stinking architecture of criminality now in control.
Libby, I may not be as far left as you, but recognize that you are brilliant. I have come to read you through and find enlightenment in many ways.
This site is what it is, frustrating at one time or another to most of us. But I have been here almost four years, writing away, because in part it is frustrating. This is a microcosm of verbal people, with all kinds of beliefs, mostly progressive. I like that, and feel comfortable when there is a messy muddle of thought about all things rather than a polar rigidity of either side.
I was an idealist and civil rights activist early on, and much came of it. But I have also learned, for myself, to be patient: with people and with time. (And to be pragmatic. With Supreme Court seats up for grabs, I will be voting for Obama. The long-range effects of an even more right-wing court is enough reason for me.) That said, I do hope you find your comfort zone and stay.
This site is what it is, frustrating at one time or another to most of us. But I have been here almost four years, writing away, because in part it is frustrating. This is a microcosm of verbal people, with all kinds of beliefs, mostly progressive. I like that, and feel comfortable when there is a messy muddle of thought about all things rather than a polar rigidity of either side.
I was an idealist and civil rights activist early on, and much came of it. But I have also learned, for myself, to be patient: with people and with time. (And to be pragmatic. With Supreme Court seats up for grabs, I will be voting for Obama. The long-range effects of an even more right-wing court is enough reason for me.) That said, I do hope you find your comfort zone and stay.
Libby, much of what you penned here resonates strongly with me. I, too, have been feeling dsiconnected and not sure of staying or going, for my own reasons. Your work is important (writing and otherwise) and your poetry, so very good. Of course you must decide whether to stay or go, but I would miss reading you. xo
Hello, Libby, this is my first time in your blog, and I have read both your story, and all of the comments. What impressed me more, is your response to all of the comments. You are a real asset in OS, cause you build true relations, although online, and I think we all need, a good thinker, and writer in here, on such important issues. Glad to meet, and read you, Libby.
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Kate:
Being against "incrementalism" is to deny the reality of our political system as it is in favor of the same sort of obstructionism and intolerance the GOP is using to destroy Obama's ability to govern.
If it is pointed out to Libby that the greatest piece of domestic legislation in our lifetime has now been put into play it is irrelevant to her and if you ask her to be reasonable about it she makes you the enemy. If I am wrong, she can correct me and I'll be more than happy to apologize.
That's finatical in my view and if the issue is what matters it isn't an argument for the sake of argument. I'm sorry you see a need to take personal sides, but I think the point needs to be made for reasons that are clear. Scare tactics, such as warning us of the encroaching "Nazi" state are reactionary, not liberal.
I have over fifty posts that show I'm interested in an inquiry not a brawl. Are you sure you can say that about Libby? She seems to take glory from smashing her adversaries and showing just how close minded she can be.
Being against "incrementalism" is to deny the reality of our political system as it is in favor of the same sort of obstructionism and intolerance the GOP is using to destroy Obama's ability to govern.
If it is pointed out to Libby that the greatest piece of domestic legislation in our lifetime has now been put into play it is irrelevant to her and if you ask her to be reasonable about it she makes you the enemy. If I am wrong, she can correct me and I'll be more than happy to apologize.
That's finatical in my view and if the issue is what matters it isn't an argument for the sake of argument. I'm sorry you see a need to take personal sides, but I think the point needs to be made for reasons that are clear. Scare tactics, such as warning us of the encroaching "Nazi" state are reactionary, not liberal.
I have over fifty posts that show I'm interested in an inquiry not a brawl. Are you sure you can say that about Libby? She seems to take glory from smashing her adversaries and showing just how close minded she can be.
will be back! best, libby
WOW,Libby!!!
You celebtrate your standing ovation here,as I just noticed.
I join the party tomorrow,if you don't mind.
You celebtrate your standing ovation here,as I just noticed.
I join the party tomorrow,if you don't mind.
There are reports this morning of a massive corn crop failure in the central USA due to a lack of rain. Perhaps I am premature and this is just a glitch but there is a reasonable possibility that the Earth has tipped and there will be like crop failures throughout the world. Nothing drives aggression and violence like a lack of food and I am getting extremely uneasy about the overwhelming stupidity of the species to properly prepare for the coming catastrophes. Obama and his Wall Street and corporate puppet masters operates on the psychotic basis that the world is basically stable and can be manipulated by the powers in control to squeeze the last bit of wealth and freedom from the world to their own benefit but I am afraid things are getting out of anybody's control. I am quite old and hoped the worst would appear after I had succumbed but things now seem to be pressing rather close. Nobody in power seems to have any sense at all and people like Ben Sen seem totally unaware of how desperate things are getting. It may take a year or two to get the message to the masses that we are sliding rapidly into Hell.
jmac, i have appreciated your good will and generosity to me. I feel like we are members of the new guard that came on board maybe around the same time. Your stories are compelling and inspiring. you are so highly respected on open salon. As is your history of advocacy.
But your "pragmatism" at times sets off the sirens of cognitive dissonance in my skull.
I don't see two steps forward, one step backward. I see three steps backwards. Maybe on a rare occasion two steps backward then one step forward. But I think that is veneer, ONLY the appearance of one step forward on Obama's part. One more Trojan Horse in which Obama will dust off his too rare and populist rhetoric, but trust me, both he and Bush committed to making shyster billionaires into shyster zillionaires and dismantling the constitution. That is their legacy, along with a lot of destroyed American and foreign lives and building the scaffolding of fascism. I am not being hyperbolic. Go look at the 218 reasons and you might want to access the links behind them.
Raise your hand ANYONE if you think these wars are grounded in genuine humanitarianism? Not spun from that dirty lie. But genuinely for that reason. Raise you hand if you think that the joblessness and homelessness is the fault of the American people and not the greedy rat bastards who have plundered the system by bribing -- buying -- our oath-taking traitors in Congress and the WH? Still not regulations!
So, let's see. Who is punished for this? One Bernie Madoff to symbolize that accountability has been done. Yeah, Madoff was bad, but where are the rest of them? And Bernie burned many of the rich as well as poor. If he had stuck to just economically raping the poor he would still be walking around. Trust me on that one. Tch tch.
Who is Obama actually going after? Whistleblowers calling out the crimes of the Bush AND his regime!
I see Obama with his photo op of new citizens in uniform willing to sacrifice their very lives and if they survive with their lives (in their multiple grotesquely inhumane and dangerous number of deployments) their psychological well being and maybe physical capacities will be profoundly damaged.
As volunteer soldiers they are now just so much cannon fodder to Obama and the military industrial security complex. The ruling class elite treats lower class human lives as pawns, as bugsplats in drone parlance, for raising the amoral and craven stakes of its big fat addictive economic and military gambles. Bring on the nukes, next, Barack. That is where we are all heading. (but we must protect the bogus purity already lost of the Supreme Court and vote you back???? Seriously???)
The US will play Russian roulette with these new American citizen lives for the sake of corporate profiteering. Obama made a nice speech at West Point about how he will make help available at the other end of their service time if they survive for any of their traumatic brain injuries. Seriously. TALK ABOUT COLD AND CALLOW COMFORT. (but what a lovely smile Obama offers us all)
Why not save Americans and their foreign victims from gratuitous violence? But no ... corporate interests are now considered American interests. Obama will do his part. Anti-people. Anti-peace. Anti-planet.
Be REALISTIC, libby, people say to me. YOU BE REALISTIC. This is not about the "truthiness" of the smart corporate paid people on MSNBC banging the drums about mean old Team Republican. This is horrifying reality, the war criminality and white collar criminality continuing continuing continuing under Obama.
I am being realistic and I and many others here bring well organized and documented proof just how horrifying things are. There is a list of 218 reasons not to vote for Obama listed on this blogsite to your left.
But people skip over them ... minimize them or deny them ... WHY????? because they are not serious enough? There are not enough of them? They are lies? Probably the third many think. Just puffed up Obama hate? They are NOT lies. THEY ARE REALITY THAT DESERVES TO BE RESPONDED TO WITH REASON AND EMPATHY. What an icky unpleasant read, libby. Poor Barack doing his best. No thanks! Not interested in your attempt, libby, to discredit our president! To bum us out.
Obama should be impeached for so many of those betrayals, some standing alone would be enough to impeach him in a humane world.
Instead I get the "yes, but" game. "Yes, but ..." there is Romney in the wings. If there were two million reasons not to re-elect Obama I trust I would still be told, "YES, BUT ..." NOT THE REPUBLICANS. GOD HELP US ALL. A knee-jerk responsiveness.
No? Then what about Jill Stein. JILL STEIN? "Yes, but..." she would never win. Because most of us are hypnotized into playing the YES BUT crazymaking knee-jerk response answer to ANYTHING CITED about the heart of darkness of our corporate-captured government.
THINGS COULD GET WORSE. You can bet on it. WITH OBAMA OR ROMNEY. They guaranteed will get worse if the population cowardly protects the status quo speeding us down the slippery slope of fascism. Both Romney and Obama will take us there. If you want to think Obama is doing it more slowly, think that. But he is taking us there. That should count, should it not?
Playing "yes, but ..." gives those their justification for doing supposedly all that they "reasonably" can, voting for Obama not Romney and apparently that is enough. Not much for people, peace and planet but what the hey. Let's play hostage to Dem Party blackmail. We are the only alternative. Vote for us despite hundreds literally of betrayals!!! Wow. What a racket!!!! The power of default. Do anything you want Obama -- and he is -- and you're covered with the blank check TERRORISM of having a Republican at the helm. We'll wax sentimental and faux-pragmatic as you do whatever.
I pout about that libertarian's 218 reasons and many here not reading or profoundly discounting them -- playing the YES BUT game with me and how it makes ME feel. POOR ME?????
But I am not at the moment locked up -- having been locked up for two years without formally being charged -- and facing perhaps execution for sedition by trying to release EVIDENCE OF INSTITUTIONALIZED CRIMINALITY OF MY GOVERNMENT LEADERS. I libbyliberal just copied and pasted revelations allegedly Manning and Assange and other brave souls risked a lot more to bring to us all. I am still a free woman. Frustrated but free.
But imagine the frustration and sense of betrayal and extreme crazymaking of and to Brad Manning who allegedly brought hard evidence of criminality and had it cold-shouldered by the vast majority of the country he was trying to help and save from evil insanity? Now facing death for TREASON????
Whistleblowers who are the real American heros trusted that bringing the hard and what should have been absolutely indicting truth to us as a haggard public would have serious results in a rational blowback of outrage and rallying to action to STOP EVIL. Instead we watch those heros being vilified and made examples of. They must be held accountable while the criminals get richer and richer and commit more and more, yes, mass murder ... or no they don't get their hands dirty, they make the members of the lower class do it and if these poor pawns later commit suicide or self-destruct in the quality of their lives over the horrors they committed in the name of country ... so what? No skin off the "entitled 1%ers" noses.
That Collateral Murder video alone from Wikileaks of the still unaccountable soldiers shooting and killing civilians and even wounding children -- a video -- playing war like a video game -- and Manning is thrown in jail and tortured with solitary confinement and enforced nudity and God knows what else ... and faces death or life in prison for, out of conscience, thinking these non-rules of engagement deserved exposure.
And Assange who was doing the job that the rest of the journalists should have been doing, exposing massive wrong doing, what of him? Assange to be tracked down like a dog, and if he gets to Ecuador for sanctuary will we simply go to war with Ecuador? Why not. Obama is on a roll, though a handy dandy drone assuredly has Assange's name on it. THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY, NOW. (But keep telling yourself you are voting Obama to protect the Supreme Court, already pretty much lost if you are not really looking at reality but instead listening to MSNBC corporate and crony-Dem shills.)
That's my take, jmac! Appreciate the encouragement to keep speaking out absolutely but I am not seeing those two steps forward.
But your "pragmatism" at times sets off the sirens of cognitive dissonance in my skull.
I don't see two steps forward, one step backward. I see three steps backwards. Maybe on a rare occasion two steps backward then one step forward. But I think that is veneer, ONLY the appearance of one step forward on Obama's part. One more Trojan Horse in which Obama will dust off his too rare and populist rhetoric, but trust me, both he and Bush committed to making shyster billionaires into shyster zillionaires and dismantling the constitution. That is their legacy, along with a lot of destroyed American and foreign lives and building the scaffolding of fascism. I am not being hyperbolic. Go look at the 218 reasons and you might want to access the links behind them.
Raise your hand ANYONE if you think these wars are grounded in genuine humanitarianism? Not spun from that dirty lie. But genuinely for that reason. Raise you hand if you think that the joblessness and homelessness is the fault of the American people and not the greedy rat bastards who have plundered the system by bribing -- buying -- our oath-taking traitors in Congress and the WH? Still not regulations!
So, let's see. Who is punished for this? One Bernie Madoff to symbolize that accountability has been done. Yeah, Madoff was bad, but where are the rest of them? And Bernie burned many of the rich as well as poor. If he had stuck to just economically raping the poor he would still be walking around. Trust me on that one. Tch tch.
Who is Obama actually going after? Whistleblowers calling out the crimes of the Bush AND his regime!
I see Obama with his photo op of new citizens in uniform willing to sacrifice their very lives and if they survive with their lives (in their multiple grotesquely inhumane and dangerous number of deployments) their psychological well being and maybe physical capacities will be profoundly damaged.
As volunteer soldiers they are now just so much cannon fodder to Obama and the military industrial security complex. The ruling class elite treats lower class human lives as pawns, as bugsplats in drone parlance, for raising the amoral and craven stakes of its big fat addictive economic and military gambles. Bring on the nukes, next, Barack. That is where we are all heading. (but we must protect the bogus purity already lost of the Supreme Court and vote you back???? Seriously???)
The US will play Russian roulette with these new American citizen lives for the sake of corporate profiteering. Obama made a nice speech at West Point about how he will make help available at the other end of their service time if they survive for any of their traumatic brain injuries. Seriously. TALK ABOUT COLD AND CALLOW COMFORT. (but what a lovely smile Obama offers us all)
Why not save Americans and their foreign victims from gratuitous violence? But no ... corporate interests are now considered American interests. Obama will do his part. Anti-people. Anti-peace. Anti-planet.
Be REALISTIC, libby, people say to me. YOU BE REALISTIC. This is not about the "truthiness" of the smart corporate paid people on MSNBC banging the drums about mean old Team Republican. This is horrifying reality, the war criminality and white collar criminality continuing continuing continuing under Obama.
I am being realistic and I and many others here bring well organized and documented proof just how horrifying things are. There is a list of 218 reasons not to vote for Obama listed on this blogsite to your left.
But people skip over them ... minimize them or deny them ... WHY????? because they are not serious enough? There are not enough of them? They are lies? Probably the third many think. Just puffed up Obama hate? They are NOT lies. THEY ARE REALITY THAT DESERVES TO BE RESPONDED TO WITH REASON AND EMPATHY. What an icky unpleasant read, libby. Poor Barack doing his best. No thanks! Not interested in your attempt, libby, to discredit our president! To bum us out.
Obama should be impeached for so many of those betrayals, some standing alone would be enough to impeach him in a humane world.
Instead I get the "yes, but" game. "Yes, but ..." there is Romney in the wings. If there were two million reasons not to re-elect Obama I trust I would still be told, "YES, BUT ..." NOT THE REPUBLICANS. GOD HELP US ALL. A knee-jerk responsiveness.
No? Then what about Jill Stein. JILL STEIN? "Yes, but..." she would never win. Because most of us are hypnotized into playing the YES BUT crazymaking knee-jerk response answer to ANYTHING CITED about the heart of darkness of our corporate-captured government.
THINGS COULD GET WORSE. You can bet on it. WITH OBAMA OR ROMNEY. They guaranteed will get worse if the population cowardly protects the status quo speeding us down the slippery slope of fascism. Both Romney and Obama will take us there. If you want to think Obama is doing it more slowly, think that. But he is taking us there. That should count, should it not?
Playing "yes, but ..." gives those their justification for doing supposedly all that they "reasonably" can, voting for Obama not Romney and apparently that is enough. Not much for people, peace and planet but what the hey. Let's play hostage to Dem Party blackmail. We are the only alternative. Vote for us despite hundreds literally of betrayals!!! Wow. What a racket!!!! The power of default. Do anything you want Obama -- and he is -- and you're covered with the blank check TERRORISM of having a Republican at the helm. We'll wax sentimental and faux-pragmatic as you do whatever.
I pout about that libertarian's 218 reasons and many here not reading or profoundly discounting them -- playing the YES BUT game with me and how it makes ME feel. POOR ME?????
But I am not at the moment locked up -- having been locked up for two years without formally being charged -- and facing perhaps execution for sedition by trying to release EVIDENCE OF INSTITUTIONALIZED CRIMINALITY OF MY GOVERNMENT LEADERS. I libbyliberal just copied and pasted revelations allegedly Manning and Assange and other brave souls risked a lot more to bring to us all. I am still a free woman. Frustrated but free.
But imagine the frustration and sense of betrayal and extreme crazymaking of and to Brad Manning who allegedly brought hard evidence of criminality and had it cold-shouldered by the vast majority of the country he was trying to help and save from evil insanity? Now facing death for TREASON????
Whistleblowers who are the real American heros trusted that bringing the hard and what should have been absolutely indicting truth to us as a haggard public would have serious results in a rational blowback of outrage and rallying to action to STOP EVIL. Instead we watch those heros being vilified and made examples of. They must be held accountable while the criminals get richer and richer and commit more and more, yes, mass murder ... or no they don't get their hands dirty, they make the members of the lower class do it and if these poor pawns later commit suicide or self-destruct in the quality of their lives over the horrors they committed in the name of country ... so what? No skin off the "entitled 1%ers" noses.
That Collateral Murder video alone from Wikileaks of the still unaccountable soldiers shooting and killing civilians and even wounding children -- a video -- playing war like a video game -- and Manning is thrown in jail and tortured with solitary confinement and enforced nudity and God knows what else ... and faces death or life in prison for, out of conscience, thinking these non-rules of engagement deserved exposure.
And Assange who was doing the job that the rest of the journalists should have been doing, exposing massive wrong doing, what of him? Assange to be tracked down like a dog, and if he gets to Ecuador for sanctuary will we simply go to war with Ecuador? Why not. Obama is on a roll, though a handy dandy drone assuredly has Assange's name on it. THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY, NOW. (But keep telling yourself you are voting Obama to protect the Supreme Court, already pretty much lost if you are not really looking at reality but instead listening to MSNBC corporate and crony-Dem shills.)
That's my take, jmac! Appreciate the encouragement to keep speaking out absolutely but I am not seeing those two steps forward.
Mimetalker! :-)
This is the essence. Well said:
"I love peeking into people's brains and hearts. Helps me understand even if I don't agree."
best, libby
This is the essence. Well said:
"I love peeking into people's brains and hearts. Helps me understand even if I don't agree."
best, libby
Mary, thanks so much! Feelings never seem to be in short supply with me. :-) best, libby
CG, thanks for the feedback. I felt really humbled the other day amidst all my frustration.
Beneath anger/frustration was what ... sadness? Fear? Loneliness? Dread? Shame at my grandiose presumptions of influence? Ouch, maybe that is the one. This helps:
"I know it's frustrating when you see destruction happening and are helpless in the face of it but you can't put everything on yourself."
Yes, it is about ripples individual to individual. The saying, "you can't push the river" is true, but you can "ripple it's surface" and that is something! Here's to acknowledging and emanating the ripples! One ripple at a time. And also the slogan, "take the action, LET GO of the results." That would have helped me at the time, too.
best, libby
Beneath anger/frustration was what ... sadness? Fear? Loneliness? Dread? Shame at my grandiose presumptions of influence? Ouch, maybe that is the one. This helps:
"I know it's frustrating when you see destruction happening and are helpless in the face of it but you can't put everything on yourself."
Yes, it is about ripples individual to individual. The saying, "you can't push the river" is true, but you can "ripple it's surface" and that is something! Here's to acknowledging and emanating the ripples! One ripple at a time. And also the slogan, "take the action, LET GO of the results." That would have helped me at the time, too.
best, libby
Helvetica, I think my mini-meltdown made me finally deal with the open salon, going or staying issue, and acknowledging my feelings about it. I had shelved them. I felt it was a crisis for the old timers and I was still too much a newbie to even begin to mourn or really feel strongly about it. To have the right or maybe more to have the vulnerable dependency for it.
Sometimes admitting something is important to you or wanting to let something become important to you, is harder than it seems. For me, at least!
Interesting when you say sometimes you fit and sometimes you don't. Sometimes something connects, sometimes not so much and it is about chemistry and timing and is what it is.
Part of the thrill here is never knowing definitely what will resonate with others, but saying it and moving on through.
best, libby
Sometimes admitting something is important to you or wanting to let something become important to you, is harder than it seems. For me, at least!
Interesting when you say sometimes you fit and sometimes you don't. Sometimes something connects, sometimes not so much and it is about chemistry and timing and is what it is.
Part of the thrill here is never knowing definitely what will resonate with others, but saying it and moving on through.
best, libby
vzn, thanks for the validation and the wisdom. :-)
This was interesting:
"as for open salon being a "relationship"-- you use that word many times and for me its a near red flag. you cant really have much of a "relationship" with a web site, in reality, right? its an interaction which is far different than a "relationship". dont expect too much. if you get a significant amt of feedback, which you have, I think thats golden."
Hmmm. Maybe it is more of a female need -- self-identity via connection (is that an oxymoron?) and that's different from guys who find identity via individuation. (read a great book called The Mermaid and the Minotaur that explores this. or was it mars, venus? hmmm maybe both)
On one level I agree about it's being about "interaction" but on another the BELONGING thing is so important to human beings and again especially WOMEN. Maybe especially those of us who had a rocky time of it growing up.
So, I think I do have a relationship with open salon, the forest of open salon, as well as among the trees relationships. It's having a relationship with me? On a good day, like an unconditionally accepting parent who can't wait to enjoy what I am going to do next. (Whatever gets us through the night, vzn!!! My fantasy and I am sticking to it.)
Besides that illusive and projected big family base camp, there are the subgroups comprising it and more vitally one's own precious subgroup to those where one's heart travels to.
And for all of us, EVERY subgroup is unique and therefore all the more precious and fascinating and invigorating. We defy time and space and connect and explore and risk together.
When you wrote:
"look, you just got on the cover & a zillion ratings with a recent drone post right? thats a fantastic breakthru. Ive been writing about drones for ~3 yrs on here and will continue to do so, but never reached that milestone, and may never yet...."
You are king of the drone protest and I admire you and appreciate you for that enormously. As for that blog making the cover, what I told myself was that the editor must have been so new (it was the post-Emily transition week) he hadn't gotten the memo or read my name on the sh*t list for open salon big mouth troublemakers and it was a lucky for me mistake. How's that for grandiosity and low self esteem all rolled into one? :-)
What a wise comment this is also:
"the key to remember is that its like the iceberg-- a tiny visible portion and a vast underwater portion. for every comment you get, or rating you get, there are probably 10x-20x page views. the vast audience that reads our material leaves no trace at all. we get far more feedback than writers of prior generations with this technology & then we complain its not good enough."
Yes, and even if our blog doesn't even get clicked open our title lines are read by many and that alone is a mini-communication itself! :-)
As for the opportunity to publish our work, YES!!! My poetry, some of it, has been sitting ignored in a drawer-morgue for don't let me guess how many years. Once in a great while I dug some of it out to be sent off and get officially rejected and returned a month or two later, then back to the morgue. Sigh. This is so much better and rewarding!
We indeed never know who or what or when something of someone else's will connect with us and vice versa.
What rich comments, vzn!!! Wise man! I thank you. (You were one of the first to fill in those goose eggs next to my screen name and I will always be grateful for your sensitivity and support then and ongoing!)
best, libby
xxx
This was interesting:
"as for open salon being a "relationship"-- you use that word many times and for me its a near red flag. you cant really have much of a "relationship" with a web site, in reality, right? its an interaction which is far different than a "relationship". dont expect too much. if you get a significant amt of feedback, which you have, I think thats golden."
Hmmm. Maybe it is more of a female need -- self-identity via connection (is that an oxymoron?) and that's different from guys who find identity via individuation. (read a great book called The Mermaid and the Minotaur that explores this. or was it mars, venus? hmmm maybe both)
On one level I agree about it's being about "interaction" but on another the BELONGING thing is so important to human beings and again especially WOMEN. Maybe especially those of us who had a rocky time of it growing up.
So, I think I do have a relationship with open salon, the forest of open salon, as well as among the trees relationships. It's having a relationship with me? On a good day, like an unconditionally accepting parent who can't wait to enjoy what I am going to do next. (Whatever gets us through the night, vzn!!! My fantasy and I am sticking to it.)
Besides that illusive and projected big family base camp, there are the subgroups comprising it and more vitally one's own precious subgroup to those where one's heart travels to.
And for all of us, EVERY subgroup is unique and therefore all the more precious and fascinating and invigorating. We defy time and space and connect and explore and risk together.
When you wrote:
"look, you just got on the cover & a zillion ratings with a recent drone post right? thats a fantastic breakthru. Ive been writing about drones for ~3 yrs on here and will continue to do so, but never reached that milestone, and may never yet...."
You are king of the drone protest and I admire you and appreciate you for that enormously. As for that blog making the cover, what I told myself was that the editor must have been so new (it was the post-Emily transition week) he hadn't gotten the memo or read my name on the sh*t list for open salon big mouth troublemakers and it was a lucky for me mistake. How's that for grandiosity and low self esteem all rolled into one? :-)
What a wise comment this is also:
"the key to remember is that its like the iceberg-- a tiny visible portion and a vast underwater portion. for every comment you get, or rating you get, there are probably 10x-20x page views. the vast audience that reads our material leaves no trace at all. we get far more feedback than writers of prior generations with this technology & then we complain its not good enough."
Yes, and even if our blog doesn't even get clicked open our title lines are read by many and that alone is a mini-communication itself! :-)
As for the opportunity to publish our work, YES!!! My poetry, some of it, has been sitting ignored in a drawer-morgue for don't let me guess how many years. Once in a great while I dug some of it out to be sent off and get officially rejected and returned a month or two later, then back to the morgue. Sigh. This is so much better and rewarding!
We indeed never know who or what or when something of someone else's will connect with us and vice versa.
What rich comments, vzn!!! Wise man! I thank you. (You were one of the first to fill in those goose eggs next to my screen name and I will always be grateful for your sensitivity and support then and ongoing!)
best, libby
xxx
Bleue!!!
I suspect you are highly intuitive in temperament and a real pragmatist in the best sense of the word.
Feeling the fragility of the ice beneath your acquaintances’ feet long before it gave way on them is a troubling gift. So many of us, myself included, remind me of those cartoon characters that go speeding off a cliff and hang in mid-air, looking everywhere but down, suspecting that it is our denial that will defy gravity and postpone the dangerous plunge. Something like cavalierly whistling through a graveyard I suppose.
Sometimes intuitives are accused of being pessimists, when their temperamental equipment has to do with foresight. They say God divides and each temperament has its gifts and its challenges. Foresight is not always easy, considering the messenger gets killed scenario.
Was it the day after Obama won the election he gave a victory speech before so many people and the tv cameras and I suddenly felt such foreboding. Was that when Oprah and Jessie J. were crying? I didn't like Michelle's dress. It wasn't flattering to her figure I thought.
Something was very off I felt with Obama and his speech. I saw a hard look of anger in his eyes, as he too sharply shifted his head and eyes back and forth, not seeking out eyes, not connecting it felt like with individuals in the near crowd nor with the waves of humanity cheering him on there and in their homes.
Sirens of cognitive dissonance began their first Obama concert in my skull. Where was the joy and relief and spiritual high? A vibe of bonding with his supporters. Why did I feel suddenly sick? I thought to myself and later told a friend, I thought either that guy is really hurting because of the recent death of his grandmother and understandably needs to get psychologically re-grounded, or "maybe this is a slick and callow and cold guy who just conned 80 million of us." I was horrified that I could begin to think such a thing on such a day and occasion and tried to shake it off.
I hoped more than trusted for change I could believe in. I had gone to Pennsylvania the morning of the election and made phone calls all day coaxed by a work friend to be a party of history, but the emergency brake stayed on in my heart. I had worked hard earlier for Edwards. I had foreboding about Edwards, too, there at the end before he resigned. That he had become troublingly remote from his earnest and passionate workers. Where was his leadership for us?
Anyway, after the 2008 election I watched friends excitedly hanging up Obama pictures in their cubes at work. I didn't want to exhale yet. I wanted proof this guy had a capacity for serious empathy. I AM STILL WAITING!
FWIW.
Reading your account of what happened to your friends economically, I had a company outsource my department to India about 6 years ago. They called us up, those not working the traditional week-day shift (I worked double shifts on weekends), and summoned us and those working on the premises that day (I remember it was a bright blue-skyed autumn afternoon) to come to a special conference room at a certain time. No explanation of what it was about.
We collected in a room where two suited officials, very young, of the company and whom we had never seen before were nervously joshing it up in the hallway.
We sat there waiting. I had been there five years, a relative newbie. Some of my compatriots --there were about 50 or 60 of us -- had been there 20 plus years. The two young men finally came in from the hall, closed the door, and mechanically told us that our department's work was being outsourced to India in a month and a half. Say what? That we would have to find alternate employment. Say what?
Jobs were hard to come by then, but not as insanely hard to come by as now. I was lucky to find one within a month. I was the first. Some got jobs in our profession. Many others had to resort to new kinds of jobs. One even got a job as a guard at an airline.
The delivery of the news from the young men was horrifyingly non-empathetic. They quickly brought out charts and graphs and placed them on big easels and spent the next 30 (?) minutes explaining to us how this outsourcing decision was going to save the company serious money. On and on about the money, the profits increasing, as if this was at all seriously relevant to us at that gut wrenching point. On and on. Surreal. On they droned. Did any of us actually hear what they were saying? Not much.
Neither of them said anything close to "We're sorry this is happening to you." Not even close. Only, this is how this decision will help the economic welfare of the company, yadda yadda yadda.
A few of us got angry and rallied to ask questions. The men had sketchy responses and advised we would hear more later on. The room became eerily, funereally quiet as the men collected their charts off the easels and left the room. Left us to re-commence breathing.
If it had to be done, management couldn't have picked a more callous and non-empathetic way to deliver the news. It’s amazing the power of an “I’m sorry this is happening to you all” would have meant. I mean, clearly these young suited pups had not made such an executive decision. No skin off their noses to spare a few molecules of empathy. They couldn’t and didn’t give it. What was their special probably 6-figure income and title to lower the boom on us I wondered?
Oh, and in the next month and a half they turned one of the floors into a conference center with high end equipment, Italian marble in the bathrooms, and made the corridors have a swirling structure and no longer perpendicular structure. Wonder how much that cost?
They did keep on a tiny group of employees to facilitate the electronic transfer of work to India -- one person per shift (later the work was shifted to the Philippines, I guess India was too expensive and they got a better deal). Of that tiny number of employees, management reps told them that they would no longer be recognized as employees of the company (most of that group had been there between 15 and 20 years). They were now part of the "outsourcing" agency in NYC. Lower money, fewer benefits and much fewer vacation and sick days. Oh, and in addition, that meant that though they had been attending Christmas parties and the summer company picnic every year over their long service, they would no longer be allowed to attend them.
This company party mandate would apply to 8 ex-longtimers in a firm of maybe 600+. Like the Soup Nazi pronouncement! NO CHRISTMAS PARTY FOR YOU!!!
Creeeepppy tacky? You betcha. Rules are rules. Boundaries are boundaries. That was salt in the wound I felt, not allowing those few if they wanted to to enjoy the company Christmas party. But, corporations not into empathy back then and even worse now.
FWIW
Bleue, I appreciate this:
"The only control you have is over your side of the communication. I too struggle with the third part of the serenity prayer. My experience with addiction is that most people change when they have no other choice and most are addicted to the way things have always been."
Yes, wise words. They say stress makes people narcissistic. That is why it is important to be proactive before the shock and paralysis hits us -- before we can't help contract into survival narcissism and impotence from despair. Important to rally and unite -- not divide up. Find a mutual voice of courage and justified anger.
I mean, not only are the US 99% getting shafted by the 1% millionaires transitioning to zillionaires via OUR backs, jobs, homes, welfare, but our global family of men and women, the 99% of the world, are also getting shafted. The bankster corporate mafia has been working well and evilly together, even resorting to mass murder in many cases.
We need to join forces. Stop watching in our shock and horror or denial. DO SOMETHING! SAY "ENOUGH!!!!" No longer enable evil.
Bleue, I love how you put this.
"Much like Dr. Fromm-Reichmann who liked her security and wasn't going to let go of it, until she had no choice. In the meantime I'm not going to be personally therapized by someone who has all the "brilliant answers" into a death camp."
And this is also so significant to me:
" There are so few presenting anything but the two choices and we have more. I am very frightened about the things Obama has done regarding our personal freedom and safety, far more than about the money but I can't see a way to make others understand how incredibly dangerous it is to ignore it. "Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming, we're finally on our own, this summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio." How quickly those who love Neil Young forget his messages."
Bleue, I respect your wisdom, courage and generosity. Thank you for being a role model of strength and compassion and self-compassion! :-)
best, libby
xxxx
I suspect you are highly intuitive in temperament and a real pragmatist in the best sense of the word.
Feeling the fragility of the ice beneath your acquaintances’ feet long before it gave way on them is a troubling gift. So many of us, myself included, remind me of those cartoon characters that go speeding off a cliff and hang in mid-air, looking everywhere but down, suspecting that it is our denial that will defy gravity and postpone the dangerous plunge. Something like cavalierly whistling through a graveyard I suppose.
Sometimes intuitives are accused of being pessimists, when their temperamental equipment has to do with foresight. They say God divides and each temperament has its gifts and its challenges. Foresight is not always easy, considering the messenger gets killed scenario.
Was it the day after Obama won the election he gave a victory speech before so many people and the tv cameras and I suddenly felt such foreboding. Was that when Oprah and Jessie J. were crying? I didn't like Michelle's dress. It wasn't flattering to her figure I thought.
Something was very off I felt with Obama and his speech. I saw a hard look of anger in his eyes, as he too sharply shifted his head and eyes back and forth, not seeking out eyes, not connecting it felt like with individuals in the near crowd nor with the waves of humanity cheering him on there and in their homes.
Sirens of cognitive dissonance began their first Obama concert in my skull. Where was the joy and relief and spiritual high? A vibe of bonding with his supporters. Why did I feel suddenly sick? I thought to myself and later told a friend, I thought either that guy is really hurting because of the recent death of his grandmother and understandably needs to get psychologically re-grounded, or "maybe this is a slick and callow and cold guy who just conned 80 million of us." I was horrified that I could begin to think such a thing on such a day and occasion and tried to shake it off.
I hoped more than trusted for change I could believe in. I had gone to Pennsylvania the morning of the election and made phone calls all day coaxed by a work friend to be a party of history, but the emergency brake stayed on in my heart. I had worked hard earlier for Edwards. I had foreboding about Edwards, too, there at the end before he resigned. That he had become troublingly remote from his earnest and passionate workers. Where was his leadership for us?
Anyway, after the 2008 election I watched friends excitedly hanging up Obama pictures in their cubes at work. I didn't want to exhale yet. I wanted proof this guy had a capacity for serious empathy. I AM STILL WAITING!
FWIW.
Reading your account of what happened to your friends economically, I had a company outsource my department to India about 6 years ago. They called us up, those not working the traditional week-day shift (I worked double shifts on weekends), and summoned us and those working on the premises that day (I remember it was a bright blue-skyed autumn afternoon) to come to a special conference room at a certain time. No explanation of what it was about.
We collected in a room where two suited officials, very young, of the company and whom we had never seen before were nervously joshing it up in the hallway.
We sat there waiting. I had been there five years, a relative newbie. Some of my compatriots --there were about 50 or 60 of us -- had been there 20 plus years. The two young men finally came in from the hall, closed the door, and mechanically told us that our department's work was being outsourced to India in a month and a half. Say what? That we would have to find alternate employment. Say what?
Jobs were hard to come by then, but not as insanely hard to come by as now. I was lucky to find one within a month. I was the first. Some got jobs in our profession. Many others had to resort to new kinds of jobs. One even got a job as a guard at an airline.
The delivery of the news from the young men was horrifyingly non-empathetic. They quickly brought out charts and graphs and placed them on big easels and spent the next 30 (?) minutes explaining to us how this outsourcing decision was going to save the company serious money. On and on about the money, the profits increasing, as if this was at all seriously relevant to us at that gut wrenching point. On and on. Surreal. On they droned. Did any of us actually hear what they were saying? Not much.
Neither of them said anything close to "We're sorry this is happening to you." Not even close. Only, this is how this decision will help the economic welfare of the company, yadda yadda yadda.
A few of us got angry and rallied to ask questions. The men had sketchy responses and advised we would hear more later on. The room became eerily, funereally quiet as the men collected their charts off the easels and left the room. Left us to re-commence breathing.
If it had to be done, management couldn't have picked a more callous and non-empathetic way to deliver the news. It’s amazing the power of an “I’m sorry this is happening to you all” would have meant. I mean, clearly these young suited pups had not made such an executive decision. No skin off their noses to spare a few molecules of empathy. They couldn’t and didn’t give it. What was their special probably 6-figure income and title to lower the boom on us I wondered?
Oh, and in the next month and a half they turned one of the floors into a conference center with high end equipment, Italian marble in the bathrooms, and made the corridors have a swirling structure and no longer perpendicular structure. Wonder how much that cost?
They did keep on a tiny group of employees to facilitate the electronic transfer of work to India -- one person per shift (later the work was shifted to the Philippines, I guess India was too expensive and they got a better deal). Of that tiny number of employees, management reps told them that they would no longer be recognized as employees of the company (most of that group had been there between 15 and 20 years). They were now part of the "outsourcing" agency in NYC. Lower money, fewer benefits and much fewer vacation and sick days. Oh, and in addition, that meant that though they had been attending Christmas parties and the summer company picnic every year over their long service, they would no longer be allowed to attend them.
This company party mandate would apply to 8 ex-longtimers in a firm of maybe 600+. Like the Soup Nazi pronouncement! NO CHRISTMAS PARTY FOR YOU!!!
Creeeepppy tacky? You betcha. Rules are rules. Boundaries are boundaries. That was salt in the wound I felt, not allowing those few if they wanted to to enjoy the company Christmas party. But, corporations not into empathy back then and even worse now.
FWIW
Bleue, I appreciate this:
"The only control you have is over your side of the communication. I too struggle with the third part of the serenity prayer. My experience with addiction is that most people change when they have no other choice and most are addicted to the way things have always been."
Yes, wise words. They say stress makes people narcissistic. That is why it is important to be proactive before the shock and paralysis hits us -- before we can't help contract into survival narcissism and impotence from despair. Important to rally and unite -- not divide up. Find a mutual voice of courage and justified anger.
I mean, not only are the US 99% getting shafted by the 1% millionaires transitioning to zillionaires via OUR backs, jobs, homes, welfare, but our global family of men and women, the 99% of the world, are also getting shafted. The bankster corporate mafia has been working well and evilly together, even resorting to mass murder in many cases.
We need to join forces. Stop watching in our shock and horror or denial. DO SOMETHING! SAY "ENOUGH!!!!" No longer enable evil.
Bleue, I love how you put this.
"Much like Dr. Fromm-Reichmann who liked her security and wasn't going to let go of it, until she had no choice. In the meantime I'm not going to be personally therapized by someone who has all the "brilliant answers" into a death camp."
And this is also so significant to me:
" There are so few presenting anything but the two choices and we have more. I am very frightened about the things Obama has done regarding our personal freedom and safety, far more than about the money but I can't see a way to make others understand how incredibly dangerous it is to ignore it. "Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming, we're finally on our own, this summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio." How quickly those who love Neil Young forget his messages."
Bleue, I respect your wisdom, courage and generosity. Thank you for being a role model of strength and compassion and self-compassion! :-)
best, libby
xxxx
will be back. sorry so slow getting through the comments. they are really appreciated! best, libby
Lezlie, really appreciate this and your and Chicken Maaan's generous support re award. Certainly reduced my sense of isolation and self-pity!
Amazing what a difference a day or two can make, and how risking some vulnerability can give back a hundredfold! Though I know my emotional roller coaster will inevitably make return stops.
I love how you express yourself: "Reading this post was like peeking into a window on the wall of my own mind." Though it often feels more like a bell-jar with me than a window! Harder to open, but when some stale air is let out and some fresh in it is awesome.
Like your "right" fighter formula: "I must be willing to not only listen to/read an opposite POV, I must be open to hearing it."
"You are a valuable member of this crazy community, " was such a heartening thing to say to me, though at times I feel more like a "crazy member of this valuable community!"
I don't know if I have wealthy information, but I do know that I have experiences that when shared heal me at the very least.
Thanks for the mega-dose of support on this one.
Best, libby
Amazing what a difference a day or two can make, and how risking some vulnerability can give back a hundredfold! Though I know my emotional roller coaster will inevitably make return stops.
I love how you express yourself: "Reading this post was like peeking into a window on the wall of my own mind." Though it often feels more like a bell-jar with me than a window! Harder to open, but when some stale air is let out and some fresh in it is awesome.
Like your "right" fighter formula: "I must be willing to not only listen to/read an opposite POV, I must be open to hearing it."
"You are a valuable member of this crazy community, " was such a heartening thing to say to me, though at times I feel more like a "crazy member of this valuable community!"
I don't know if I have wealthy information, but I do know that I have experiences that when shared heal me at the very least.
Thanks for the mega-dose of support on this one.
Best, libby
Bernadine, maybe we can put OS into the positive addiction category? This was very moving:
"But here's the thing, it has been about the people who have enriched my life and my world in what could have been a very long and lonely three years in my "new normal."
Here's to your serene and rich "new normal" my friend! OS manages to expand my spirit far more often than it contracts it! As cyber homes go, this one provides a blessed lot! Thanks for the reminder and for reading my often lengthy sharings!
best, libby
"But here's the thing, it has been about the people who have enriched my life and my world in what could have been a very long and lonely three years in my "new normal."
Here's to your serene and rich "new normal" my friend! OS manages to expand my spirit far more often than it contracts it! As cyber homes go, this one provides a blessed lot! Thanks for the reminder and for reading my often lengthy sharings!
best, libby
Hey Just Thinking...
You were willing to wade through this three times??? More power to you.
Thanks for the wisdom and validation. Open Salon does make me spend more time these days tending the "smithy of my soul." A good thing. I also appreciate this wisdom:
"I too get caught spending way too much time here and have had to learn to back off and remember to join brick-and-mortar friends, even if I feel so happy with you all here so often..."
And your sobering advice on my excitedly anticipating how a sharing will convince, with immediate concrete evidence (hah!), that something will have the exact and powerful impact that I grandiosely will it to.
Appreciate:
"I felt that might be the problem you are having, as, that is a tall order in the best possible world, much less online, plus, I'm not sure you need to feel you must convince others as much as just clearly say your piece and declare that good. Some will agree, some won't. Nature of the beast."
Another saying I learned in 12 step rooms, "Take the action, let go of the result!" Easier said than done for me, but useful and may save me bumping my nose up against a wall or two I will myself to impossibly break through
.
This is also profound and well put:
"I think you declare your point of view quite well and I hope you won't regard only agreement of your views as a reason for writing here going forward..."
They say true intimacy and maybe it's highest form is not always two people coming together and seeing things exactly the same and merging over it. It is most precious and evident when two beings do not see things exactly the same or not even close but can present and explore their differences and stay in an orbit of mutual respect, acceptance, good will and/or downright love. Into-me-see I have seen it spelled as. And risking when there is a difference in perspective is the real test for mature and non-codependent relating. You don't have to give up yourself to be "endured" or "well-regarded" by another. What a load off!!! :-)
Thanks, JT!!! best, libby
You were willing to wade through this three times??? More power to you.
Thanks for the wisdom and validation. Open Salon does make me spend more time these days tending the "smithy of my soul." A good thing. I also appreciate this wisdom:
"I too get caught spending way too much time here and have had to learn to back off and remember to join brick-and-mortar friends, even if I feel so happy with you all here so often..."
And your sobering advice on my excitedly anticipating how a sharing will convince, with immediate concrete evidence (hah!), that something will have the exact and powerful impact that I grandiosely will it to.
Appreciate:
"I felt that might be the problem you are having, as, that is a tall order in the best possible world, much less online, plus, I'm not sure you need to feel you must convince others as much as just clearly say your piece and declare that good. Some will agree, some won't. Nature of the beast."
Another saying I learned in 12 step rooms, "Take the action, let go of the result!" Easier said than done for me, but useful and may save me bumping my nose up against a wall or two I will myself to impossibly break through
.
This is also profound and well put:
"I think you declare your point of view quite well and I hope you won't regard only agreement of your views as a reason for writing here going forward..."
They say true intimacy and maybe it's highest form is not always two people coming together and seeing things exactly the same and merging over it. It is most precious and evident when two beings do not see things exactly the same or not even close but can present and explore their differences and stay in an orbit of mutual respect, acceptance, good will and/or downright love. Into-me-see I have seen it spelled as. And risking when there is a difference in perspective is the real test for mature and non-codependent relating. You don't have to give up yourself to be "endured" or "well-regarded" by another. What a load off!!! :-)
Thanks, JT!!! best, libby
Thanks, Kim.
You know when I was launching my moratorium from here with such mixed feelings I caught sight of Alan N's headline and skimmed the blog and I rejoiced at the strong messaging and felt there was a growing voice here more than I was certainly crediting open salon and my fellows and sisters with (Anais Nin once wisely wrote "we see things more as WE are, than they are." That had much to do with where I was, with also some reality mixed in, but a reality that was not as daunting as I was painting it to be. Serious but not without hope.)
How precious to have the advantage of a community not only with particularly compelling and unique members like you and Stathi as yourselves, but that you are international siblings who can expand our US sensibility significantly, let fresh foreign air into our at times national "bell jar" encasement (borrowed and expanded from my comment to Lezlie above), and most importantly reminding us ALL we are part of the human family of men and women and children globally! I keep speaking of wanting a paradigm shift from patriarchal and competitive power and control and greed orientation to partnership and cooperation, humanist one. And look, here it is at open salon with testing certainly occurring but more than potential! A well-structured and protected dynamic!!! A cyber democracy.
Government strength held by the Greens!!! Now that is inspiring and would like to hear more. I am trying to get the US Greens some national corporate air time. Any ideas on that one?
Sometimes "missions" seem to find one while one is busily making other plans, eh?
With a vital warning from you:
"... complete single-mindedness scares me, at some level."
Will keep that one in mind!
THANK YOU! best, libby
You know when I was launching my moratorium from here with such mixed feelings I caught sight of Alan N's headline and skimmed the blog and I rejoiced at the strong messaging and felt there was a growing voice here more than I was certainly crediting open salon and my fellows and sisters with (Anais Nin once wisely wrote "we see things more as WE are, than they are." That had much to do with where I was, with also some reality mixed in, but a reality that was not as daunting as I was painting it to be. Serious but not without hope.)
How precious to have the advantage of a community not only with particularly compelling and unique members like you and Stathi as yourselves, but that you are international siblings who can expand our US sensibility significantly, let fresh foreign air into our at times national "bell jar" encasement (borrowed and expanded from my comment to Lezlie above), and most importantly reminding us ALL we are part of the human family of men and women and children globally! I keep speaking of wanting a paradigm shift from patriarchal and competitive power and control and greed orientation to partnership and cooperation, humanist one. And look, here it is at open salon with testing certainly occurring but more than potential! A well-structured and protected dynamic!!! A cyber democracy.
Government strength held by the Greens!!! Now that is inspiring and would like to hear more. I am trying to get the US Greens some national corporate air time. Any ideas on that one?
Sometimes "missions" seem to find one while one is busily making other plans, eh?
With a vital warning from you:
"... complete single-mindedness scares me, at some level."
Will keep that one in mind!
THANK YOU! best, libby
Alan, thank you so much for visiting and commenting. As I wrote to Kim, when I saw your headline and skimmed your blog, and on the cover, I felt like there were such important voices and messaging here and my personal sense of futility was immediately challenged and I wanted to stay all the more ... along with some other factors, including significantly some patient support expressed so readily from friends here.
And, yes, this wisdom is also appreciated, "OS is indeed addictive, and while I think it's a wonderful institution, there's always the question of how nutritious it is, just like other addictive substances. Aren't we just preaching to the choir, and expending time and energy that could more profitably be exploited elsewhere?"
A while back I was exercising more on the street involvement and it was a valuable experience for me. I think the blogging is also valuable but there is a balance to be found. Along with gratification seeking too!!! Also I must keep in mind St. Francis' wise adage, "Nothing to excess, including moderation." :-)
Yes, that anecdote from Hartmann's book is haunting! Thank you for this:
"That story you conclude with is utterly chilling - it will take some time to digest. When the madmen take over the asylum, it's often the previous inmates who are the most sane. After all, during the Third Reich, the "smart money" was on the triumph of Hitler, and his detractors were regarded as oddballs and "terrorists." As George Carlin used to say, always challenge the common "wisdom.""
To be continued! And thank you for expanding our international scope as well. You consistently bring fresh air to our US provincialism and exceptionalism! (You were one of my first OS contacts in an early blog thread and I was grateful to you for that, btw!!!)
to be continued! best, libby
And, yes, this wisdom is also appreciated, "OS is indeed addictive, and while I think it's a wonderful institution, there's always the question of how nutritious it is, just like other addictive substances. Aren't we just preaching to the choir, and expending time and energy that could more profitably be exploited elsewhere?"
A while back I was exercising more on the street involvement and it was a valuable experience for me. I think the blogging is also valuable but there is a balance to be found. Along with gratification seeking too!!! Also I must keep in mind St. Francis' wise adage, "Nothing to excess, including moderation." :-)
Yes, that anecdote from Hartmann's book is haunting! Thank you for this:
"That story you conclude with is utterly chilling - it will take some time to digest. When the madmen take over the asylum, it's often the previous inmates who are the most sane. After all, during the Third Reich, the "smart money" was on the triumph of Hitler, and his detractors were regarded as oddballs and "terrorists." As George Carlin used to say, always challenge the common "wisdom.""
To be continued! And thank you for expanding our international scope as well. You consistently bring fresh air to our US provincialism and exceptionalism! (You were one of my first OS contacts in an early blog thread and I was grateful to you for that, btw!!!)
to be continued! best, libby
@ Ben Sen:
Ben Sen, you know I agree with you on lots of things…most things, actually. And I certainly understand what you are trying to share with Libby…and with others about the way Libby operates. But I think Lea Lane said it better this time…and if she will allow it, I want to identify with her remarks to Libby.
In any case, it looks as though Libby is going to stick around...and although I disagree with damn near everything she says (mostly because of the way she says it) I am delighted that is the case. She is good for OS. I hope you feel that same way.
Ben Sen, you know I agree with you on lots of things…most things, actually. And I certainly understand what you are trying to share with Libby…and with others about the way Libby operates. But I think Lea Lane said it better this time…and if she will allow it, I want to identify with her remarks to Libby.
In any case, it looks as though Libby is going to stick around...and although I disagree with damn near everything she says (mostly because of the way she says it) I am delighted that is the case. She is good for OS. I hope you feel that same way.
IRL calling. Work looms. Will continue on again soon! Thanks again for patience! best, libby
Ben,
Thanks for commenting. I know I was and apologize for being pre-emptively defensive a couple times on your blog thread. I'll try to do better. Even on this one I said something "regressive" to someone and came back and deleted it. Progress not perfection.
I think the list of 218 reasons not to vote for Obama has very serious evidence on it we are losing democracy and heading to fascism.
I don't think I consider Obama a father. Since I am older than him, that would be hard for me. Maybe a callow kid who is seriously lacking empathy and is ego driven. Seduced long ago probably to sell out his principles for advancement. Yeah, he is so not the only one, but wields incredible power. I'd feel and express more pity for him, but the power he wields is too terrible not to call out its recklessness and ongoing devastation to so many lives.
I also think Obama had a tough childhood and his self-esteem, like mine, did not get a good grounding. One becomes a "false personality" too susceptible to pleasing and impressing others to prove one's worth. Maybe that is why it galls me, because I see my own character defects I struggled with in him. That is really dangerous in a leader, not belonging to oneself, not having one's own moral compass, but committing to the gamesmanship of opportunism. Cronyism uber individualism.
Sadly, high profile famous careers, like politicians, are attractive careers for the ego-wounded to overcompensate for their earlier spiritual oppression. They need to do some honest emotional homework.
Becoming president should be more than the ultimate dazzlement on a resume and hunger for fame and mass approval as well as power. I wish it had been more a spiritual calling for an empathetic and mature Obama. That is not who he is in my thinking and feeling. (What I see in Jill Stein is maturity and someone with a spiritual calling.)
Do you consider yourself fanatical for standing by your own perspective of things, Ben? Because you seem pretty confident in your beliefs and feelings about politics and about me. How come I am accused of fanaticism for standing by my thoughts and feelings, but your perspective with equally heels dug in is not?
We live in an anti-feeling society. A "hyper-masculine, cruel is cool, never let em see you sweat, never show your pain or your vulnerability, wise ass self-deprecating anti-hero over hero, keep it rational and pretend gamesmanship winning begats justified power and control and reward" society. Empathy and generosity are not prioritized, at least by leaders or by corporate media. Too bad.
Keeping a cap on feelings, on passion, is especially strong among the pragmatic progressives it seems imho. Such superciliousness often creates more ferocious bonding among the prouder to be passionate right wing. The xenophobia I blame on an authoritarian following and an indoctrinating faux-religious exceptionalism, anti-empathy, xenophobic belief system. Warped thinking. Cronyism corruption.
I liked the 60s with the heartfelt folksongs. It was important to expand one's heart. The most moving experience I had recently was during the Zuccotti Park excitement in NYC. I spent the night there one of the nights it was in danger of getting shut down and occupiers arrested. I was willing to be arrested if Bloomberg closed it down. I didn't want to get arrested but I committed to it and it was the most sobering and spiritually enlivening experience I had in a long time. Taking a stand and waiting to see what would happen. Exercising serious courage.
Yes, I was certainly relieved not to get arrested that day. But it made me have to stretch spiritually. Take a deep breath and put principle over my self-protectiveness. I wouldn't call that fanatical. I would call it honoring what I profess to believe in and wanting to stand up for principle and my fellow humans.
We need sobering moments like that where the ideal self we carry around and assume we are in our heads is finally tested and when it is, we get to face down the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. I wish I walked the walk more often. The more one does, the more one will .
I think the "center" is a geographic location and not the most mature political stance to take. I get tired of hearing people conflate the margin of the left and the margin of the right. Obama and operatives have been playing that for a long time. It is really getting old and tiresome and annoying. Corporate media helps minimize the importance of honor and decency and justice, but more and more people are getting the reality and cruelty of our leaders in both parties.
So, Ben, I think you and I are temperamental opposites. I suspect I am like fingers on a chalkboard for you when you read me. So it goes. If you ever took the Myers Briggs personality profile, I suspect we would have an opposite configuration. Neither is right or wrong, it is what it is.
Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just are. I was raised around people who considered the expression of strong feelings evidence of craziness or stupidity. They were threatened by deep feelings in others, indications that things were in need of being honestly addressed.
I think we live in harsh times and emotionally responding to them is far healthier than keeping everything protectively and exclusively intellectual and hyper-rational.
Going after messengers declaring just how serious and dangerous and ominous things are is a typical response of many people. Might be something you might want to look at?
I need to work on trying to sustain serenity more often in myself. That capacity gets tested. I admit that. But I am not sorry to feel things deeply. Raised when I was, it seemed women were allowed to get sad but not angry, men were allowed to get angry not sad. This society still doesn't forgive readily vulnerable men and angry women.
I think anger can be a conversion process. necessary for processing harsh ambushes. You feel it and move through it. Like the stages of grief.
My take.
Take care. best, libby
Thanks for commenting. I know I was and apologize for being pre-emptively defensive a couple times on your blog thread. I'll try to do better. Even on this one I said something "regressive" to someone and came back and deleted it. Progress not perfection.
I think the list of 218 reasons not to vote for Obama has very serious evidence on it we are losing democracy and heading to fascism.
I don't think I consider Obama a father. Since I am older than him, that would be hard for me. Maybe a callow kid who is seriously lacking empathy and is ego driven. Seduced long ago probably to sell out his principles for advancement. Yeah, he is so not the only one, but wields incredible power. I'd feel and express more pity for him, but the power he wields is too terrible not to call out its recklessness and ongoing devastation to so many lives.
I also think Obama had a tough childhood and his self-esteem, like mine, did not get a good grounding. One becomes a "false personality" too susceptible to pleasing and impressing others to prove one's worth. Maybe that is why it galls me, because I see my own character defects I struggled with in him. That is really dangerous in a leader, not belonging to oneself, not having one's own moral compass, but committing to the gamesmanship of opportunism. Cronyism uber individualism.
Sadly, high profile famous careers, like politicians, are attractive careers for the ego-wounded to overcompensate for their earlier spiritual oppression. They need to do some honest emotional homework.
Becoming president should be more than the ultimate dazzlement on a resume and hunger for fame and mass approval as well as power. I wish it had been more a spiritual calling for an empathetic and mature Obama. That is not who he is in my thinking and feeling. (What I see in Jill Stein is maturity and someone with a spiritual calling.)
Do you consider yourself fanatical for standing by your own perspective of things, Ben? Because you seem pretty confident in your beliefs and feelings about politics and about me. How come I am accused of fanaticism for standing by my thoughts and feelings, but your perspective with equally heels dug in is not?
We live in an anti-feeling society. A "hyper-masculine, cruel is cool, never let em see you sweat, never show your pain or your vulnerability, wise ass self-deprecating anti-hero over hero, keep it rational and pretend gamesmanship winning begats justified power and control and reward" society. Empathy and generosity are not prioritized, at least by leaders or by corporate media. Too bad.
Keeping a cap on feelings, on passion, is especially strong among the pragmatic progressives it seems imho. Such superciliousness often creates more ferocious bonding among the prouder to be passionate right wing. The xenophobia I blame on an authoritarian following and an indoctrinating faux-religious exceptionalism, anti-empathy, xenophobic belief system. Warped thinking. Cronyism corruption.
I liked the 60s with the heartfelt folksongs. It was important to expand one's heart. The most moving experience I had recently was during the Zuccotti Park excitement in NYC. I spent the night there one of the nights it was in danger of getting shut down and occupiers arrested. I was willing to be arrested if Bloomberg closed it down. I didn't want to get arrested but I committed to it and it was the most sobering and spiritually enlivening experience I had in a long time. Taking a stand and waiting to see what would happen. Exercising serious courage.
Yes, I was certainly relieved not to get arrested that day. But it made me have to stretch spiritually. Take a deep breath and put principle over my self-protectiveness. I wouldn't call that fanatical. I would call it honoring what I profess to believe in and wanting to stand up for principle and my fellow humans.
We need sobering moments like that where the ideal self we carry around and assume we are in our heads is finally tested and when it is, we get to face down the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. I wish I walked the walk more often. The more one does, the more one will .
I think the "center" is a geographic location and not the most mature political stance to take. I get tired of hearing people conflate the margin of the left and the margin of the right. Obama and operatives have been playing that for a long time. It is really getting old and tiresome and annoying. Corporate media helps minimize the importance of honor and decency and justice, but more and more people are getting the reality and cruelty of our leaders in both parties.
So, Ben, I think you and I are temperamental opposites. I suspect I am like fingers on a chalkboard for you when you read me. So it goes. If you ever took the Myers Briggs personality profile, I suspect we would have an opposite configuration. Neither is right or wrong, it is what it is.
Feelings aren't right or wrong. They just are. I was raised around people who considered the expression of strong feelings evidence of craziness or stupidity. They were threatened by deep feelings in others, indications that things were in need of being honestly addressed.
I think we live in harsh times and emotionally responding to them is far healthier than keeping everything protectively and exclusively intellectual and hyper-rational.
Going after messengers declaring just how serious and dangerous and ominous things are is a typical response of many people. Might be something you might want to look at?
I need to work on trying to sustain serenity more often in myself. That capacity gets tested. I admit that. But I am not sorry to feel things deeply. Raised when I was, it seemed women were allowed to get sad but not angry, men were allowed to get angry not sad. This society still doesn't forgive readily vulnerable men and angry women.
I think anger can be a conversion process. necessary for processing harsh ambushes. You feel it and move through it. Like the stages of grief.
My take.
Take care. best, libby
Kate, very classy of you, what you said, and I thank you!
Also, thanks for your good will!!! I want to be a multi-dimensional citizen of this community and not play a role with one note to my voice. Will work on it.
Take care of your precious self. To be continued I look forward to ...
best, libby
Also, thanks for your good will!!! I want to be a multi-dimensional citizen of this community and not play a role with one note to my voice. Will work on it.
Take care of your precious self. To be continued I look forward to ...
best, libby
Donegal, wise words and I thank you:
"I think we can only hope to be understood and accepted by a relatively few number of people. The knowledge that you were true to yourself, to speaking your vision, has to be the compensation for not being widely accepted, understood, and appreciated."
I had a writing teacher who once told me not to try to write to appeal to EVERYONE. To let those who "get me" and are sympatico with the real me come to me and cherish a voice speaking rawly and bravely from my authentic self. I guess the principle of "attraction" rather than "promotion" in terms of taking the verbal action and letting go of the result applies here.
Though in the case of the political and moral chaos of our times, I think it is important to earnestly try to appeal to the higher selves in as many people as we can and try to visit it in ourselves as often as we can possibly get there. Strident judgmentalism, though, may not be the best way to go and my suddenly declaring "shame on you" to an entire website in a comment to commenters of good will may have indicated I needed to step back and reflect on me not others.
Collective and ongoing and insidiously indoctrinating anti-empathy "shock and awe" trickling down upon us from a government and media lying to us. Some see through it from going to honest sources. Others fighting to stay in denial, are, some, at least going through cognitive dissonance, not a pleasant experience, and due, in part, to those of us banging the drums about the mass governmental lying. They can heed the cognitive dissonance by waking up to institutionalized evil, or they can come after the messengers who are stirring up their consciences to cause that annoying buzz of the dissonance. We have to fasten our seatbelts emotionally as messengers of this.
Nice to see you, Donegal! Thanks!
best, libby
"I think we can only hope to be understood and accepted by a relatively few number of people. The knowledge that you were true to yourself, to speaking your vision, has to be the compensation for not being widely accepted, understood, and appreciated."
I had a writing teacher who once told me not to try to write to appeal to EVERYONE. To let those who "get me" and are sympatico with the real me come to me and cherish a voice speaking rawly and bravely from my authentic self. I guess the principle of "attraction" rather than "promotion" in terms of taking the verbal action and letting go of the result applies here.
Though in the case of the political and moral chaos of our times, I think it is important to earnestly try to appeal to the higher selves in as many people as we can and try to visit it in ourselves as often as we can possibly get there. Strident judgmentalism, though, may not be the best way to go and my suddenly declaring "shame on you" to an entire website in a comment to commenters of good will may have indicated I needed to step back and reflect on me not others.
Collective and ongoing and insidiously indoctrinating anti-empathy "shock and awe" trickling down upon us from a government and media lying to us. Some see through it from going to honest sources. Others fighting to stay in denial, are, some, at least going through cognitive dissonance, not a pleasant experience, and due, in part, to those of us banging the drums about the mass governmental lying. They can heed the cognitive dissonance by waking up to institutionalized evil, or they can come after the messengers who are stirring up their consciences to cause that annoying buzz of the dissonance. We have to fasten our seatbelts emotionally as messengers of this.
Nice to see you, Donegal! Thanks!
best, libby
Inverted Interrobang -- wow, my meltdown was so worth it to end up with this breathtakingly beautiful validation from you!
"You should be taking these words and throwing them into the air where they belong... They would fly beautifully, on powerful wings like wise owls, like hawks, and flamingos...
with a heart and a soul... and a mind."
You make me want to strive so much harder to begin to deserve this!!!!
Thanks for the thrilling inspiration and for you!
best, libby
xxx
"You should be taking these words and throwing them into the air where they belong... They would fly beautifully, on powerful wings like wise owls, like hawks, and flamingos...
with a heart and a soul... and a mind."
You make me want to strive so much harder to begin to deserve this!!!!
Thanks for the thrilling inspiration and for you!
best, libby
xxx
Jan, the compelling gravitas your comments always carry, your dignified and consistent and continuing and unshakeable wisdom, you bring to the open salon community is so healthily sobering and so seriously respected by so many of us. I hope you don't underestimate yourself in that regard.
You and so many others here contribute to my heeding my own moral compass so often.
Yes, indeed, Jan:
"There is some satisfaction in having a place to bitch about how stupid and brutal those in power have been and most definitely still are but aside from leaking out a bit of the negativity for relief and confirmation with people of like mind there is pretty much zero real influence on the real situation."
I have to pause here and take a deep breath because you very elegantly do sum up the despair that ambushed me so strongly the other day. You write:
" The agility of the people in power in suppressing the occupy movement which was merely a peaceful expression of misery over current events and expressly permitted under the Constitution and the failure to kick out the governor of Wisconsin who obviously is a political whore and a very bad penny by the people he was offending is an open indication the nation seems pretty much unaware as to the disasters it is headed for unopposed."
Yes, Jan. For all the horrors that have gone down, there seems so little call for accountability of the perpetrators, especially from the massive majority of their victims. It is a sobering phenomenon and reminiscent of the darkest regime oppressions in history, like Naziism. I think of the proverbial "absolute power corrupts absolutely." When the law has been dismantled to such a degree and media so effectively seduces so many to pretend it is not happening!
A government that took the very psychological studies of "learned helplessness" of individuals for the purposes of reducing the personal hells of people and uses them to engineer and induce such personal hells in PTSD shocked and awed innocent strangers who happened to be gratuitously in their sociopathic profiteering way, or God help them, dared to think they had the right to resist?
You also profoundly touch me with this, Jan.
"The energy and the firm documentation of your opinions has been a joy to me at this site, however ineffectual they might have been on actual action. Please do not leave. Whacking at the petrified public may seem hopeless, but it's a job that must be done and eventually you might start an avalanche of conscious understanding that will tumble the stinking architecture of criminality now in control."
God, Jan, your eloquence absolutely stuns me (and your respect deeply humbles me, and as I said to II, I want to strive to earn it) as I savor every turn of phrase, its rhythm and alliterative nuance, even when or especially when you are describing such vile amoral heart-breaking conditions.
I thank you! I am reminded on this thread of how lucky and blessed I am to witness and be supported by and to fight with and to learn from such incredible spiritual heros as yourself.
Thank you, thank you!
best, libby
xxxx
You and so many others here contribute to my heeding my own moral compass so often.
Yes, indeed, Jan:
"There is some satisfaction in having a place to bitch about how stupid and brutal those in power have been and most definitely still are but aside from leaking out a bit of the negativity for relief and confirmation with people of like mind there is pretty much zero real influence on the real situation."
I have to pause here and take a deep breath because you very elegantly do sum up the despair that ambushed me so strongly the other day. You write:
" The agility of the people in power in suppressing the occupy movement which was merely a peaceful expression of misery over current events and expressly permitted under the Constitution and the failure to kick out the governor of Wisconsin who obviously is a political whore and a very bad penny by the people he was offending is an open indication the nation seems pretty much unaware as to the disasters it is headed for unopposed."
Yes, Jan. For all the horrors that have gone down, there seems so little call for accountability of the perpetrators, especially from the massive majority of their victims. It is a sobering phenomenon and reminiscent of the darkest regime oppressions in history, like Naziism. I think of the proverbial "absolute power corrupts absolutely." When the law has been dismantled to such a degree and media so effectively seduces so many to pretend it is not happening!
A government that took the very psychological studies of "learned helplessness" of individuals for the purposes of reducing the personal hells of people and uses them to engineer and induce such personal hells in PTSD shocked and awed innocent strangers who happened to be gratuitously in their sociopathic profiteering way, or God help them, dared to think they had the right to resist?
You also profoundly touch me with this, Jan.
"The energy and the firm documentation of your opinions has been a joy to me at this site, however ineffectual they might have been on actual action. Please do not leave. Whacking at the petrified public may seem hopeless, but it's a job that must be done and eventually you might start an avalanche of conscious understanding that will tumble the stinking architecture of criminality now in control."
God, Jan, your eloquence absolutely stuns me (and your respect deeply humbles me, and as I said to II, I want to strive to earn it) as I savor every turn of phrase, its rhythm and alliterative nuance, even when or especially when you are describing such vile amoral heart-breaking conditions.
I thank you! I am reminded on this thread of how lucky and blessed I am to witness and be supported by and to fight with and to learn from such incredible spiritual heros as yourself.
Thank you, thank you!
best, libby
xxxx
Lea, I am coming to appreciate so many active and potential soul mates on this thread with so much to offer me and our open salon society and society in general. Willing to step over to me in a thread like this and give me such a generous measure of good will and validation! You write:
"This site is what it is, frustrating at one time or another to most of us. But I have been here almost four years, writing away, because in part it is frustrating. This is a microcosm of verbal people, with all kinds of beliefs, mostly progressive. I like that, and feel comfortable when there is a messy muddle of thought about all things rather than a polar rigidity of either side."
"I was an idealist and civil rights activist early on, and much came of it. But I have also learned, for myself, to be patient: with people and with time."
I respect what you are saying and your consciousness surrounding it. The choice you are making with the SCOTUS I do hear. But I believe we must not get preciously strategic at the same time we are postponing the stoppage of and enabling so-called lesser evil which "lesser evilism" is really profoundly and devastatingly evil in the now and for the future. We can't afford to wait and go slowly in collective too modest efforts. All THREE of our branches are CORRUPT. Trying to protect one of them, the judicial branch, that is already really far gone is dooming us. We must take them all on! NOW!
As I see it, we must wage a total downright sit down strike or stand up strike as citizens for morality and let BOTH PARTIES know we will not stand for further corruption. Not incremental lessening of corruption which turns out to be really smoke and mirrors and bogus and insulting mendacity.
Both parties have jumped the proverbial shark and do not deserve any more ENABLING. Trying to ward off future destruction of our rights with the court when the dismantling of our democracy is already far along will be a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Lea, to be continued!!!!!
Thank you!!!
best, libby
"This site is what it is, frustrating at one time or another to most of us. But I have been here almost four years, writing away, because in part it is frustrating. This is a microcosm of verbal people, with all kinds of beliefs, mostly progressive. I like that, and feel comfortable when there is a messy muddle of thought about all things rather than a polar rigidity of either side."
"I was an idealist and civil rights activist early on, and much came of it. But I have also learned, for myself, to be patient: with people and with time."
I respect what you are saying and your consciousness surrounding it. The choice you are making with the SCOTUS I do hear. But I believe we must not get preciously strategic at the same time we are postponing the stoppage of and enabling so-called lesser evil which "lesser evilism" is really profoundly and devastatingly evil in the now and for the future. We can't afford to wait and go slowly in collective too modest efforts. All THREE of our branches are CORRUPT. Trying to protect one of them, the judicial branch, that is already really far gone is dooming us. We must take them all on! NOW!
As I see it, we must wage a total downright sit down strike or stand up strike as citizens for morality and let BOTH PARTIES know we will not stand for further corruption. Not incremental lessening of corruption which turns out to be really smoke and mirrors and bogus and insulting mendacity.
Both parties have jumped the proverbial shark and do not deserve any more ENABLING. Trying to ward off future destruction of our rights with the court when the dismantling of our democracy is already far along will be a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Lea, to be continued!!!!!
Thank you!!!
best, libby
Erica, for me you are one of the strongest, most generous and most inspiring citizens of this open salon community. The thought of you exiting is truly dispiriting and I hope you stay on for all our sakes.
We need our emotional base camps. And sometimes we need base camps for our bigger base camps.
I cherish you and your ongoing gifts of heart and soul and mind and wit and amazing writing talent!
love, libby
We need our emotional base camps. And sometimes we need base camps for our bigger base camps.
I cherish you and your ongoing gifts of heart and soul and mind and wit and amazing writing talent!
love, libby
Olga, thank you and welcome. I have been impressed with your open heart and generous energy on open salon and I look forward to sharing more and more with you!!!
best, libby
best, libby
Heidi, THANK YOU!! How lovely to see you and I have appreciated your support! to be continued! best, libby xxx
Oh, Jan!!!
Yes, the house is on fire. Most of us citizen children in the meantime decide to turn on the air conditioner and watch some tube. If it were a serious situation wouldn't the adults in charge of the house be tending to it? Telling us how to save ourselves?
Climate change crises and in your face criminality. What will it take? A good friend the other night spoke about the poor farm guys who have managed to live through their Iraq/Afghan or God knows where service time and are returning to their farm homes ... or more likely their devastated families who are losing or who have already lost the farm homes and livelihood. Then add on the horrifying environmental shifts going on.
Yes, the water is rising and what will this RECKONING be like ultimately? Shock and horror begats the five stages of grief and ANGER ... RAGE .. IS A SERIOUS ONE. AND ON COLLECTIVE LEVELS? You write:
"Nothing drives aggression and violence like a lack of food and I am getting extremely uneasy about the overwhelming stupidity of the species to properly prepare for the coming catastrophes. Obama and his Wall Street and corporate puppet masters operates on the psychotic basis that the world is basically stable and can be manipulated by the powers in control to squeeze the last bit of wealth and freedom from the world to their own benefit but I am afraid things are getting out of anybody's control. I am quite old and hoped the worst would appear after I had succumbed but things now seem to be pressing rather close."
Mass desperation. It is awesome how thick the "FOG" has become (what Kevin Zeese calls out as "forces of greed"). The levels our addict leaders will go in their amoral self- and other-destructiveness is profound.
What is to come? Anger is justified. But will it ricochet on innocents even further? Like what our government and NATO have managed to do in destabilizing and destroying so many hapless and undeserving countries in this world, leaving them in their despair or dangerous flailings against each other now?
What is to come of the 99% of the US, the latest descending into this gratuitously and sociopathically engineered third world desperate victimhood.
best, libby
Yes, the house is on fire. Most of us citizen children in the meantime decide to turn on the air conditioner and watch some tube. If it were a serious situation wouldn't the adults in charge of the house be tending to it? Telling us how to save ourselves?
Climate change crises and in your face criminality. What will it take? A good friend the other night spoke about the poor farm guys who have managed to live through their Iraq/Afghan or God knows where service time and are returning to their farm homes ... or more likely their devastated families who are losing or who have already lost the farm homes and livelihood. Then add on the horrifying environmental shifts going on.
Yes, the water is rising and what will this RECKONING be like ultimately? Shock and horror begats the five stages of grief and ANGER ... RAGE .. IS A SERIOUS ONE. AND ON COLLECTIVE LEVELS? You write:
"Nothing drives aggression and violence like a lack of food and I am getting extremely uneasy about the overwhelming stupidity of the species to properly prepare for the coming catastrophes. Obama and his Wall Street and corporate puppet masters operates on the psychotic basis that the world is basically stable and can be manipulated by the powers in control to squeeze the last bit of wealth and freedom from the world to their own benefit but I am afraid things are getting out of anybody's control. I am quite old and hoped the worst would appear after I had succumbed but things now seem to be pressing rather close."
Mass desperation. It is awesome how thick the "FOG" has become (what Kevin Zeese calls out as "forces of greed"). The levels our addict leaders will go in their amoral self- and other-destructiveness is profound.
What is to come? Anger is justified. But will it ricochet on innocents even further? Like what our government and NATO have managed to do in destabilizing and destroying so many hapless and undeserving countries in this world, leaving them in their despair or dangerous flailings against each other now?
What is to come of the 99% of the US, the latest descending into this gratuitously and sociopathically engineered third world desperate victimhood.
best, libby
Dear Rudy,
I did find comfort in your second comment! Hah!!!
best, libby
xxxx
I did find comfort in your second comment! Hah!!!
best, libby
xxxx
toritto, I hear you about the volatility of political discourse among work acquaintances and even family acquaintances.
But also, consider that is kind of like "parallel play" of pre-mature toddlers who co-exist but do not engage and relate with each other. I think we all have to stop ignoring the horrifying elephant in the corner of the room. It means risking a warm cozy cronyism, but things are at such a stage now, we are choosing collective zombie-ism rather than true civilization. Numbed out humanity ... necrophilic not biophilic. Spiritually dead before it is dead.
I would have responded more lightly, but Jan's last comment is still rattling around in my mind and heart!
You take care and thanks for the comfort of your fully awakened conscience!
best, libby
xxx
But also, consider that is kind of like "parallel play" of pre-mature toddlers who co-exist but do not engage and relate with each other. I think we all have to stop ignoring the horrifying elephant in the corner of the room. It means risking a warm cozy cronyism, but things are at such a stage now, we are choosing collective zombie-ism rather than true civilization. Numbed out humanity ... necrophilic not biophilic. Spiritually dead before it is dead.
I would have responded more lightly, but Jan's last comment is still rattling around in my mind and heart!
You take care and thanks for the comfort of your fully awakened conscience!
best, libby
xxx
Frank, thanks for commenting and though my style of communication offends you as you say, I thank you for supporting my right to use that voice here! best, libby
A short comment, Libby. To _thank_ you -- and also all the comment-ers so far -- for this huge piece of work. As I pm'd you, night, before last was the first time in two months I have been able to post or comment here. "But/and"(*) I have spent HOURS with this post with immense gratitude and appreciation: of (for) your work, and for all the comments. I see you've moved on to a new post. I wish I could have participated while the activity here was at its height. Congratulations on the Readers Pick nomination -- clearly well deserved!
N.B. From 2009 until now, my OS user name was podunkmarte.
N.B. From 2009 until now, my OS user name was podunkmarte.
"night before last". [Sorry.]
I don't think I've ever seen such a thorough response to comments, Libby.
The way you responded to Ben Sen is a benchmark, for OS.
Koshersalaami comes close, but for civility & all the other wonderful virtues, even he, in my opinion, comes second to this.
Thank you.
The way you responded to Ben Sen is a benchmark, for OS.
Koshersalaami comes close, but for civility & all the other wonderful virtues, even he, in my opinion, comes second to this.
Thank you.
Libby, what wonderful responses you make, letting us all feel heard -- how generous of you.
You wrote in response to me:
"They say true intimacy and maybe it's highest form is not always two people coming together and seeing things exactly the same and merging over it. It is most precious and evident when two beings do not see things exactly the same or not even close but can present and explore their differences and stay in an orbit of mutual respect, acceptance, good will and/or downright love..."
You have described my marriage here ~ : )
I read all your responses here and this caught my eye, in your response to Ben Sen:
"I also think Obama had a tough childhood and his self-esteem, like mine, did not get a good grounding. One becomes a "false personality" too susceptible to pleasing and impressing others to prove one's worth..."
When I was discussing Obama with my oldest brother, this was exactly his take on it -- and like a kid wanting to be 'in' with the big guys, he's gone along with terrible and dangerous agendas just to be...well, one of the big guys...
It's the drones that put me over the edge -- but not just about Obama, about anyone we elect, who will use those same drones.
Drones!
Ack!
I like the back and forth of debate -- your posts bring out the virtual fly-on-the-wall fun : )
You wrote in response to me:
"They say true intimacy and maybe it's highest form is not always two people coming together and seeing things exactly the same and merging over it. It is most precious and evident when two beings do not see things exactly the same or not even close but can present and explore their differences and stay in an orbit of mutual respect, acceptance, good will and/or downright love..."
You have described my marriage here ~ : )
I read all your responses here and this caught my eye, in your response to Ben Sen:
"I also think Obama had a tough childhood and his self-esteem, like mine, did not get a good grounding. One becomes a "false personality" too susceptible to pleasing and impressing others to prove one's worth..."
When I was discussing Obama with my oldest brother, this was exactly his take on it -- and like a kid wanting to be 'in' with the big guys, he's gone along with terrible and dangerous agendas just to be...well, one of the big guys...
It's the drones that put me over the edge -- but not just about Obama, about anyone we elect, who will use those same drones.
Drones!
Ack!
I like the back and forth of debate -- your posts bring out the virtual fly-on-the-wall fun : )
You take the road less traveled, and we will all be the lesser for it if you go alone.
I enjoyed the first part of your post; I think everyone who blogs here on a regular basis feels the way you do. OS quickly gets under your skin and you want more. It's an itch that's always there, wondering what's new and who's saying what and what might I might stumble on that may change the way I think or cause me to laugh or cry or get mad or be amazed or even feel envious, because the talent pool here is just so deep. And you're right in there.
A big part of the attraction is as you say, the spontaneity and also, knowing that this is a place where I can almost always find a kindred spirit even if it's just reading a post that resonates with me.
Yes it's easy to become addicted to OS but no more so than anything else, even reading a book.
I don't understand why it has to be an all-or-nothing deal.
The second portion of your post puzzles me and while the final anecdote was certainly troublesome, I don't get its relevance to this piece. In fact, this reads more like two completely different posts.
There's disasters brewing in everyone's worlds, everywhere. Most of us will never see them coming but they'll happen whether we anticipate them or not just because that's how things work in this world. You feel "alarm and dread" about "how bad things are in this country?" Then put it in perspective. You could have felt this way no matter what year you lived in, including long before the U.S. was a gleam in a greedy explorer's eye. The poorest most down and out people here still live better than most people in third world counntries. And you can talk and blog freely about how bad things are and criticize those in power without fearing for your life. Would you really want to live anywhere else in the world?
I'm not being glib but it's always the best of times, the worst of times and always will be. Got to learn how to manage your thought about it, just like managing your time on OS.
A big part of the attraction is as you say, the spontaneity and also, knowing that this is a place where I can almost always find a kindred spirit even if it's just reading a post that resonates with me.
Yes it's easy to become addicted to OS but no more so than anything else, even reading a book.
I don't understand why it has to be an all-or-nothing deal.
The second portion of your post puzzles me and while the final anecdote was certainly troublesome, I don't get its relevance to this piece. In fact, this reads more like two completely different posts.
There's disasters brewing in everyone's worlds, everywhere. Most of us will never see them coming but they'll happen whether we anticipate them or not just because that's how things work in this world. You feel "alarm and dread" about "how bad things are in this country?" Then put it in perspective. You could have felt this way no matter what year you lived in, including long before the U.S. was a gleam in a greedy explorer's eye. The poorest most down and out people here still live better than most people in third world counntries. And you can talk and blog freely about how bad things are and criticize those in power without fearing for your life. Would you really want to live anywhere else in the world?
I'm not being glib but it's always the best of times, the worst of times and always will be. Got to learn how to manage your thought about it, just like managing your time on OS.
Fricassee/marte!!!! it is nice to hear from you. I hope you are doing well. Welcome back! You have been missed. The blog alone is a real time commitment and you waded thru all the comments, too. I am really honored and grateful. I am about to leave for a sweatshop job so don't have much time now but looking forward to more communication. Thanks for checking in! will check pm! best, libby
Kim, how nice of you to return and to say what you did. I can get seriously carried away in commenting and wonder sometimes if they will get ultimately read. But nice to be in that open zone for sharing, inspired by the amount of good will in the feedback. This blog, too, is precious since it had such personal feelings surrounding it -- frustration and confusion at the beginning. As for the effort at civility, maybe it is time I practice more earnestly as Gandhi urged the change I want to see in the world. My talk about paradigm shifts to partnership and cooperation. I want to be open and be honest. Growing up honesty was not encouraged and usually got conflated with anger when gunny-sacked repressed communications burst. Brave new world for me trying to be honest and assertive without having to fuel the honesty with anger. Though I don't want to throw out healthy anger and our times require the expression of justified anger there is so much corruption. I also want to invite courage more than short-lived bravado. One blog and comment at a time! :-)
Thanks again! best, libby
Thanks again! best, libby
JT! How nice to hear back from you. Your disclosure about achieving intimacy with profound differences with your loved one is something very worth celebrating! You are my role model!
You also write:
"When I was discussing Obama with my oldest brother, this was exactly his take on it -- and like a kid wanting to be 'in' with the big guys, he's gone along with terrible and dangerous agendas just to be...well, one of the big guys..."
"It's the drones that put me over the edge -- but not just about Obama, about anyone we elect, who will use those same drones.
Drones!"
I so agree with you about the evil and the proliferation of the evil drones. And Obama who seems to see leadership as gamesmanship not statesmanship, tragically. We need a leader with a moral grounding to push back against the incredible corruption -- institutionalization of evil. dismantling of the constitution under our noses with the media making no big deal of it all. Money, money, money as power, power, power. We have power as citizens. In unity.
Really classy of you to re-comment like this!
to be continued, my friend! best, libby
You also write:
"When I was discussing Obama with my oldest brother, this was exactly his take on it -- and like a kid wanting to be 'in' with the big guys, he's gone along with terrible and dangerous agendas just to be...well, one of the big guys..."
"It's the drones that put me over the edge -- but not just about Obama, about anyone we elect, who will use those same drones.
Drones!"
I so agree with you about the evil and the proliferation of the evil drones. And Obama who seems to see leadership as gamesmanship not statesmanship, tragically. We need a leader with a moral grounding to push back against the incredible corruption -- institutionalization of evil. dismantling of the constitution under our noses with the media making no big deal of it all. Money, money, money as power, power, power. We have power as citizens. In unity.
Really classy of you to re-comment like this!
to be continued, my friend! best, libby
Sheila! Great to see you and what a wonderful and provocative statement. I would love to be brave enough to take the road less travelled by -- stay with it -- and enjoy the brave fellowship of those going along, too. Together we can make it! I really believe that. love, libby
Margaret, thanks for commenting. I have to dash for work soon and I want to give your question and comment a thoughtful response. If I get a chance during a work break I will write then, otherwise as soon as I can. Take care and to be continued! best, libby
@Margaret, as I see it if Romney seizes the White House and the Teabag Mafia the Senate, and keeps the House, it might not be long before dissent of any stripe is seriously outlawed. Might be why the popular fiction of late points that way, what with the doom themes and dystopian scenarios and substitution of zombies, aliens and vampires for our real villains. Preparing to fool the censors? It worked for Ilf and Petrov in the days of Stalin.
Margaret, thanks for commenting. You express it well, the open salon positive addiction:
"...OS quickly gets under your skin and you want more. It's an itch that's always there, wondering what's new and who's saying what and what might I might stumble on that may change the way I think or cause me to laugh or cry or get mad or be amazed or even feel envious, because the talent pool here is just so deep. And you're right in there."
You ask me:
"I don't understand why it has to be an all-or-nothing deal."
With me? Because part of my motivation for communicating on open salon is trying to communicate important information and a perspective that is contrary to what is being fed to us citizens by the corporate media and the corporate political systems and which I genuinely believe is creating hard times for all of us and guaranteeing even worse hard times and un-democratizing our country. We are being fed what is best for the 1 percent and what is best for the 99% is not being prioritized or included in the national conversation, at least on the tv.
Our corporate profit driven captured government is also ignoring the right even to basically live for innocent people in other countries. And exploiting our young people to fight wars for profiteering, to risk their lives and physical and mental well being for profits for the 1 percenters, not for the real self-defense of 100% of us.
These exploited veterans, those who survive from the "hamburger hill" surreally dangerous circumstances they are asked to partake of, if they manage to survive those insane number of deployments, are so devastated by what they were made to do and what they went through they are forever altered.
Whether suicidal (and the suicide rates are stunning) or addicted to drugs or alcohol or prone to physical abuse of others. A danger to themselves or others. The culture of violence, in fact, in the military is so altering that military rapes like suicides reflect sobering statistics. Every third woman entering the military can expect to get sexually assaulted it has been said. These are horrifying symptoms of profound dysfunction, but our government is like an addict with war. Spending billions to promote it, ignoring the horrifying impact it is having on human lives, whether American or foreign. Lost to gamesmanship ... an amoral gamesmanship.
But politicians, like for 4th of July celebrating, ramp up the patriotic jingoism. Schmooze over what has really been happening. Talk sentimentalized "truthiness" that by being myopically supportive to your country, no matter what the powers that be are doing in our name and with our tax dollars, it is okay and it is admirable to give your endorsement of your country and feel good about it all. Don't question authority, but defend it out of sentimentality and national loyalty.
Obama and Romney are both committed to the warring (and the needs of the 1% above the 99%). We don't have a major candidate in either party who is committed to peace and diplomacy. Obama's droning and his altering one of the basic protections and citizen rights -- of due process, the right to a trial to determine innocent or guilt! Obama's assuming the right to assassinate any American any time under his sole determination is not legal or ethical. And that he has done this without being held accountable for it horrifies me.
That people want to re-elect him, rather than impeach him horrifies me. My horror at the minimization of my fellow citizens to the crimes of our own leadership is what frustrates me and alarms me and wears me down and makes me lose my serenity in trying to relate to them at times which is what happened when I felt such futility and frustration last week.
Again, it is cognitively dissonant for me to be relating to many people whom I am growing to enjoy and respect, but who are denying or minimizing what I find so wrong. So insanely wrong. People who have no problem with war crimes and white collar crimes being committed and/or enabled by those in charge of this country. The "lesser evilism" rationale horrifies me because I see the "lesser evil" behavior of the Obama regime as seriously evil, no matter how "evil" the Republican regime would be. It is seriously evil now. The 218 reasons not to vote for Obama from that blog I cited and quoted in a recent blog has so many reasons why Obama has not been trustworthy as a leader from the get go. Yes, he has done some good, but what he is doing that is not good is overwhelming!
And that our tax dollars, how many trillions, over 20, was given over so easily to the very perpetrators of the economic meltdown. And the corporate scoundrels took the money and instead of generating jobs they gave it to each other as bonuses. As David Michael Green said, the billionaires wanted to be zillionaires and since they bribed most of our representatives in Washington, were enabled in that outrageous exploitation. As Rachel Maddow has said, "it is an ethical freakshow of a universe."
You write:
"There's disasters brewing in everyone's worlds, everywhere. Most of us will never see them coming but they'll happen whether we anticipate them or not just because that's how things work in this world. You feel "alarm and dread" about "how bad things are in this country?" Then put it in perspective. You could have felt this way no matter what year you lived in, including long before the U.S. was a gleam in a greedy explorer's eye. The poorest most down and out people here still live better than most people in third world counntries."
I think we are losing the security and the advantages we have enjoyed in this not perfect country. Seriously losing the protections and opportunities that many of us have enjoyed. Seriously becoming a third world nation. Obama is bringing jobs back to the US only because unions are now broken, and wages are so low now we are competing with the struggling sweat shop workers in other countries because our supposedly benign but not really present administration is bringing sweat shops to America so that the corporate moguls can enjoy more profits. Another source of cheap insourcing is using prisoners. We have an obscenely high prison population. But what the hey, there is a racket to keep non-violent offenders and offenders imprisoned for long sentences to exploit them.
I think citizens should be involved in their government or it will become more and more fascistic which is what has happened in the US. I also believe the old adage, "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." There is another adage, about the 3 types of people -- how some people make things happen, some watch things happen, and some way too late ask "WTF happened???" Too many of us are in either the second or third category. And the corporate media and parties are so willing to keep us in those categories and from the real and alarming truths so we will not work together to protect our national culture and freedoms and rights.
Margaret, I think we as citizens can make a difference. Otherwise our apathy and complacency contributes to the dead weight of the problem.
It is heartbreaking that the Vietnam War went on so long, that so many atrocities happened during that horrifying war. So many millions died or had their lives devastated. But it did eventually stop, and a multitude of Americans FINALLY said "THIS WAR IS WRONG." There was a collective conscience, there was a breakthru in American exceptionalism to admit "we are doing wrong here. destroying villages in order to save them?" Some of the neocons thought and still think we as a country are right no matter what we do. Might makes right. But thank God the majority of the country finally acknowledged the reality of what had been happening in our name with our tax dollars that was amoral. It is time for us to rise up again and say STOP. To do an intervention to a government that has stopped working for our welfare which is what the oaths they took said they would and should do.
You write:
"And you can talk and blog freely about how bad things are and criticize those in power without fearing for your life. Would you really want to live anywhere else in the world?"
I am frightened of what is happening and what may happen to all of us but especially those protesting wherever. I think there is a small window of time in which we still have the freedom to share with each other as best we can the truth and reality that is so different from what is being served up, the propaganda, on corporate television. With so much surveillance going on now, paid with our tax dollars, I believe those of us protesting are in danger. If not in the next 24 hours, perhaps soon enough. I don't think this is "conspiracy theory thinking". I think our government is dangerous to proactive people of conscience. Especially if other citizens yawn and not join in and let them twist in the wind for trying to communicate and safe what is left of our constitution and get leaders who can still restore it. Like Jill Stein whom is so threatening to the status quo they won't even begin to talk about her campaign.
5 major conglomerates run most of the media in this country. 5 super execs are framing the information we get, have that kind of power, and our charismatic television spokespeople whose checks are signed off by these major corporate conglomerates and their zillionaire chieftains will frame the stories to sustain getting their pay. Whether on Fox or MSNBC.
Getting back to the "non-dangerous" climate you think I am taking for granted, again, I think we are losing that climate fast. I think if we don't bond together those who are out front messaging the truth of the mendacity of the corporate media and the government will be the first to be demonized as "dangerous domestic dissenters" and more and more their protesting will be criminalized and they will face detention or even worse.
We are on a horrifying slippery slope. War crimes are not held accountable (breaking the Geneva conventions and defying international laws) and white collar crimes here and abroad are not being held to account. But whistleblowers are being draconianly prosecuted. We don't hear about them much of course not from the corporate media. But we need to hear about them from sources that do know this truth and it is alarming to what is happening more and more.
I know my perspective does not jive with yours, but it is what I think and how I see and feel things right now. I think times are seriously bad and getting worse. I think we need to communicate the truth and reality as citizens of conscience.
Margaret, thanks for listening and exploring with me. Appreciate it. I'll leave off for now, but to be continued.
best, libby
"...OS quickly gets under your skin and you want more. It's an itch that's always there, wondering what's new and who's saying what and what might I might stumble on that may change the way I think or cause me to laugh or cry or get mad or be amazed or even feel envious, because the talent pool here is just so deep. And you're right in there."
You ask me:
"I don't understand why it has to be an all-or-nothing deal."
With me? Because part of my motivation for communicating on open salon is trying to communicate important information and a perspective that is contrary to what is being fed to us citizens by the corporate media and the corporate political systems and which I genuinely believe is creating hard times for all of us and guaranteeing even worse hard times and un-democratizing our country. We are being fed what is best for the 1 percent and what is best for the 99% is not being prioritized or included in the national conversation, at least on the tv.
Our corporate profit driven captured government is also ignoring the right even to basically live for innocent people in other countries. And exploiting our young people to fight wars for profiteering, to risk their lives and physical and mental well being for profits for the 1 percenters, not for the real self-defense of 100% of us.
These exploited veterans, those who survive from the "hamburger hill" surreally dangerous circumstances they are asked to partake of, if they manage to survive those insane number of deployments, are so devastated by what they were made to do and what they went through they are forever altered.
Whether suicidal (and the suicide rates are stunning) or addicted to drugs or alcohol or prone to physical abuse of others. A danger to themselves or others. The culture of violence, in fact, in the military is so altering that military rapes like suicides reflect sobering statistics. Every third woman entering the military can expect to get sexually assaulted it has been said. These are horrifying symptoms of profound dysfunction, but our government is like an addict with war. Spending billions to promote it, ignoring the horrifying impact it is having on human lives, whether American or foreign. Lost to gamesmanship ... an amoral gamesmanship.
But politicians, like for 4th of July celebrating, ramp up the patriotic jingoism. Schmooze over what has really been happening. Talk sentimentalized "truthiness" that by being myopically supportive to your country, no matter what the powers that be are doing in our name and with our tax dollars, it is okay and it is admirable to give your endorsement of your country and feel good about it all. Don't question authority, but defend it out of sentimentality and national loyalty.
Obama and Romney are both committed to the warring (and the needs of the 1% above the 99%). We don't have a major candidate in either party who is committed to peace and diplomacy. Obama's droning and his altering one of the basic protections and citizen rights -- of due process, the right to a trial to determine innocent or guilt! Obama's assuming the right to assassinate any American any time under his sole determination is not legal or ethical. And that he has done this without being held accountable for it horrifies me.
That people want to re-elect him, rather than impeach him horrifies me. My horror at the minimization of my fellow citizens to the crimes of our own leadership is what frustrates me and alarms me and wears me down and makes me lose my serenity in trying to relate to them at times which is what happened when I felt such futility and frustration last week.
Again, it is cognitively dissonant for me to be relating to many people whom I am growing to enjoy and respect, but who are denying or minimizing what I find so wrong. So insanely wrong. People who have no problem with war crimes and white collar crimes being committed and/or enabled by those in charge of this country. The "lesser evilism" rationale horrifies me because I see the "lesser evil" behavior of the Obama regime as seriously evil, no matter how "evil" the Republican regime would be. It is seriously evil now. The 218 reasons not to vote for Obama from that blog I cited and quoted in a recent blog has so many reasons why Obama has not been trustworthy as a leader from the get go. Yes, he has done some good, but what he is doing that is not good is overwhelming!
And that our tax dollars, how many trillions, over 20, was given over so easily to the very perpetrators of the economic meltdown. And the corporate scoundrels took the money and instead of generating jobs they gave it to each other as bonuses. As David Michael Green said, the billionaires wanted to be zillionaires and since they bribed most of our representatives in Washington, were enabled in that outrageous exploitation. As Rachel Maddow has said, "it is an ethical freakshow of a universe."
You write:
"There's disasters brewing in everyone's worlds, everywhere. Most of us will never see them coming but they'll happen whether we anticipate them or not just because that's how things work in this world. You feel "alarm and dread" about "how bad things are in this country?" Then put it in perspective. You could have felt this way no matter what year you lived in, including long before the U.S. was a gleam in a greedy explorer's eye. The poorest most down and out people here still live better than most people in third world counntries."
I think we are losing the security and the advantages we have enjoyed in this not perfect country. Seriously losing the protections and opportunities that many of us have enjoyed. Seriously becoming a third world nation. Obama is bringing jobs back to the US only because unions are now broken, and wages are so low now we are competing with the struggling sweat shop workers in other countries because our supposedly benign but not really present administration is bringing sweat shops to America so that the corporate moguls can enjoy more profits. Another source of cheap insourcing is using prisoners. We have an obscenely high prison population. But what the hey, there is a racket to keep non-violent offenders and offenders imprisoned for long sentences to exploit them.
I think citizens should be involved in their government or it will become more and more fascistic which is what has happened in the US. I also believe the old adage, "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." There is another adage, about the 3 types of people -- how some people make things happen, some watch things happen, and some way too late ask "WTF happened???" Too many of us are in either the second or third category. And the corporate media and parties are so willing to keep us in those categories and from the real and alarming truths so we will not work together to protect our national culture and freedoms and rights.
Margaret, I think we as citizens can make a difference. Otherwise our apathy and complacency contributes to the dead weight of the problem.
It is heartbreaking that the Vietnam War went on so long, that so many atrocities happened during that horrifying war. So many millions died or had their lives devastated. But it did eventually stop, and a multitude of Americans FINALLY said "THIS WAR IS WRONG." There was a collective conscience, there was a breakthru in American exceptionalism to admit "we are doing wrong here. destroying villages in order to save them?" Some of the neocons thought and still think we as a country are right no matter what we do. Might makes right. But thank God the majority of the country finally acknowledged the reality of what had been happening in our name with our tax dollars that was amoral. It is time for us to rise up again and say STOP. To do an intervention to a government that has stopped working for our welfare which is what the oaths they took said they would and should do.
You write:
"And you can talk and blog freely about how bad things are and criticize those in power without fearing for your life. Would you really want to live anywhere else in the world?"
I am frightened of what is happening and what may happen to all of us but especially those protesting wherever. I think there is a small window of time in which we still have the freedom to share with each other as best we can the truth and reality that is so different from what is being served up, the propaganda, on corporate television. With so much surveillance going on now, paid with our tax dollars, I believe those of us protesting are in danger. If not in the next 24 hours, perhaps soon enough. I don't think this is "conspiracy theory thinking". I think our government is dangerous to proactive people of conscience. Especially if other citizens yawn and not join in and let them twist in the wind for trying to communicate and safe what is left of our constitution and get leaders who can still restore it. Like Jill Stein whom is so threatening to the status quo they won't even begin to talk about her campaign.
5 major conglomerates run most of the media in this country. 5 super execs are framing the information we get, have that kind of power, and our charismatic television spokespeople whose checks are signed off by these major corporate conglomerates and their zillionaire chieftains will frame the stories to sustain getting their pay. Whether on Fox or MSNBC.
Getting back to the "non-dangerous" climate you think I am taking for granted, again, I think we are losing that climate fast. I think if we don't bond together those who are out front messaging the truth of the mendacity of the corporate media and the government will be the first to be demonized as "dangerous domestic dissenters" and more and more their protesting will be criminalized and they will face detention or even worse.
We are on a horrifying slippery slope. War crimes are not held accountable (breaking the Geneva conventions and defying international laws) and white collar crimes here and abroad are not being held to account. But whistleblowers are being draconianly prosecuted. We don't hear about them much of course not from the corporate media. But we need to hear about them from sources that do know this truth and it is alarming to what is happening more and more.
I know my perspective does not jive with yours, but it is what I think and how I see and feel things right now. I think times are seriously bad and getting worse. I think we need to communicate the truth and reality as citizens of conscience.
Margaret, thanks for listening and exploring with me. Appreciate it. I'll leave off for now, but to be continued.
best, libby
Good post, good thread.
Now I see what the RP was about.
Kim:
I couldn't confuse Ben Sen with Bill Beck in a million years.I assure you they're different, radically so.
Back to Libby:
The things that push your buttons here may be as much a matter of tone as anything else. When it comes to Obama, at least for those of us who are to the Left of center (how far varies widely), there seem to be two views:
1. This guy has screwed up so much, how could you even think about accepting him?
2. This guy's opponent is so much worse, how could you even think about not voting for him?
It's a bitch of a question. I wrote a pair of posts about that sort of question, not geared specifically toward Obama but about the nature of ethical dilemmas and the ambiguous nature of moral responsibility. (If you're ever interested, the first post is called "Dirty Hands.")
Personally, I think I'm on the opposite side of this issue from where you are but I don't feel superior about it; I'm actually kind of unhappy about it. I don't like the idea of voting for someone who supports the financial establishment so heavily and has not backed accountability for those in the financial industry who screwed their country. I don't like the idea of voting for someone who has eliminated due process for any American citizen anywhere, and the hypocrisy of treating him so differently than we'd have treated a Republican President who did that bothers the crap out of me. The fact that I view it as my most sensible option doesn't make me smug about it and I don't view smugness as much of an option here. However, I've seen too many instances around the world of Third World populations getting so sick of the corrupt that they turn to the zealots, only to learn when they didn't think things could get worse that they could get a whole lot worse. We saw that here in 2000, when we learned how much bigger a difference Al Gore would have made than any of us dreamed at the time. We now know that an administration can make the difference between a Supreme Court that would pass Citizens United and one that wouldn't, and that evil is too big to ignore.
Tom Cordle wrote a good post about this phenomenon, a post that I nominated for an RP and which one this week. It's called The Poverty of Pyrrhicism. Good terminology, good post.
Still, it's not enough. A vote for (to use what is currently one of the most overused cliches in the English language) the lesser of two evils is not the same as addressing the problem, and addressing the problem is still our responsibility. Put more specifically: a vote for Obama doesn't mean universal acceptance for everything he does, that vote may strictly be a matter of temporary damage control, which doesn't take away our responsibility to try to change things for the better.
I guess, in my case, I'd rather puke in the voting booth than buy an express ticket to the train that makes me a member of what would soon be called "the 99.9%."
But I'll be damned if I'll be smug about puking in voting booths.
Now I see what the RP was about.
Kim:
I couldn't confuse Ben Sen with Bill Beck in a million years.I assure you they're different, radically so.
Back to Libby:
The things that push your buttons here may be as much a matter of tone as anything else. When it comes to Obama, at least for those of us who are to the Left of center (how far varies widely), there seem to be two views:
1. This guy has screwed up so much, how could you even think about accepting him?
2. This guy's opponent is so much worse, how could you even think about not voting for him?
It's a bitch of a question. I wrote a pair of posts about that sort of question, not geared specifically toward Obama but about the nature of ethical dilemmas and the ambiguous nature of moral responsibility. (If you're ever interested, the first post is called "Dirty Hands.")
Personally, I think I'm on the opposite side of this issue from where you are but I don't feel superior about it; I'm actually kind of unhappy about it. I don't like the idea of voting for someone who supports the financial establishment so heavily and has not backed accountability for those in the financial industry who screwed their country. I don't like the idea of voting for someone who has eliminated due process for any American citizen anywhere, and the hypocrisy of treating him so differently than we'd have treated a Republican President who did that bothers the crap out of me. The fact that I view it as my most sensible option doesn't make me smug about it and I don't view smugness as much of an option here. However, I've seen too many instances around the world of Third World populations getting so sick of the corrupt that they turn to the zealots, only to learn when they didn't think things could get worse that they could get a whole lot worse. We saw that here in 2000, when we learned how much bigger a difference Al Gore would have made than any of us dreamed at the time. We now know that an administration can make the difference between a Supreme Court that would pass Citizens United and one that wouldn't, and that evil is too big to ignore.
Tom Cordle wrote a good post about this phenomenon, a post that I nominated for an RP and which one this week. It's called The Poverty of Pyrrhicism. Good terminology, good post.
Still, it's not enough. A vote for (to use what is currently one of the most overused cliches in the English language) the lesser of two evils is not the same as addressing the problem, and addressing the problem is still our responsibility. Put more specifically: a vote for Obama doesn't mean universal acceptance for everything he does, that vote may strictly be a matter of temporary damage control, which doesn't take away our responsibility to try to change things for the better.
I guess, in my case, I'd rather puke in the voting booth than buy an express ticket to the train that makes me a member of what would soon be called "the 99.9%."
But I'll be damned if I'll be smug about puking in voting booths.
Won! Not one. I didn't get enough sleep.
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